Winter Hike/Camping gear for the high peaks?

The answers to all your questions depend on where you are going, and what weather conditions you are likely to encounter.

You can make an igloo (or, generally more easily, a snow cave) if you are going somewhere where the snow is deep. However, building a snow shelter takes quite a bit of work and time, and you would need to factor that into your trip plan. It would be best to practice building and sleeping in such a shelter before you get somewhere where you really need it.

You need poles with baskets intended for skiing or snowshoeing, and coping with soft powder snow.

You say you're going to "high peaks", which presumably means you'll be on slopes steep enough for avalanches. If so, you need a snow shovel, so you'll be prepared to test for avalanche-prone snow conditions, as well as for digging out any victims you might encounter. You certainly need a shovel if you're going to build a snow shelter.

Adam,

We really need to know where you plan to use this equipment, the temps expected and what conditions you venture out into.

Winter, high peaks are just arbitrary descriptions. Winter in Alaska in different than that in California. High Peaks in Colorado are different that those in Bolivia etc. Please be more specific.

To answer some if your general questions:

Bag: Do you expect temps lower than zero? If so, will zero work or will you need something like a -25degF bag for higher peaks? You say you have enough warm clothing– do you have enough to wear underneath your current sleeping bag to get you down to zero? Cheap options include double bagging.. for example most people own a 20degF bag and buying a cheap 40degF overbag could get you down to zero with a down jacket and pants– but it allows for no margin of error if temps get colder.

Boots: Again, it depends on how high– do you require standard leather or are you looking at double plastics? For double plastics then something like the Invernos with the Intuition liner would be perfect for any high peak above 16K, but are probably over kill for Colorado 14ers in winter. Again, specifics are required.

Tent: 4-season, two-person– what is your price?

Igloos work, but are time consuming and I don't have the experience to comment on them.

Crampons: For high peaks… necessary. No ifs or buts– even in on 13/ers/14ers in Colorado I will take them 95% of the time unless it is something like Quandary's standard route. Snowshoes are great for approches but the eventually the slope will become too steep for their traction.

Pants: Softshell for dry winter conditions. Hardhsell for wet winter conditions. For high peaks, go with the former.

Poles: Summer poles are fine– just purchase snow baskets– $4.

Snow Shovel: Unless you are in a North Face Ski commercial then yes a shovel is mandatory in avalanche terrain– however what is more important is knowing how to use it! Take an Avy class!

I should have been more specific, yes. I will be mostly hiking in the adirondack high peaks region and also other areas of the northeast like the white mountains and the green mountains. I expect to encounter mixed conditions and I really need to know more about what gear setup is most important, and what I can use from what I already have. I am a lightweight summer camper, about 16.5 lbs base weight before food and water, not as ultralight as many people on this forum. I have plenty of 3 season experience. I imagine I can use the bag and the hiking poles and my clothes, but I need more info on the bag temperature, the boots, the snowshoe/crampon situation, etc. I know there must be ice or hard pack and rock at the top of the high peaks region. I don't expect to go higher than Marcy or Washington, at 5400 feet, nothing that hardcore! Hope that clarifies a bit about the situation.

Adam, welcome to the forum. To answer your questions, well there are books written about each one. There is a ton of information on the site and some of it specific to your local. Use google/bing and add "backpacking light" to your search and it will direct you to the answers to your questions that are throughout this site.

I'll take the igloo question- If you know what you are doing (not many people do) you can make an igloo in about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. If you are new at it, you have a 50/50 chance of actually finishing one at all, and if you do finish, it could take all day. With that said, they work great if you are base camping, but if moving camp daily they are not recommended.
Also, snow conditions and depth make up a big part of the equation

One other thing, please be more specific about your needs.

http://www.winterschool.org/

The course information and gear descriptions/lists should serve as a primer. Taking the course may be worth the time and expense for someone new to backpacking in the ADKs or similar environments.

Also try http://www.adk.org/programs/January_Programs.aspxand http://www.adk.org/programs/February_Programs.aspx

Several programs including snowshoeing, skiing, and camping at several different levels. Usually in groups, 8-10 people, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Genarally they recommend a -20 bag. January and Febuary *may* require a bit more, but these will be safe with other clothing you have.

Boots are highly personal, but generally I like a good set of well treated leather boots. About 1 size larger than I usually use for 3 season use. I back three pair of thick socks in these to stay good and warm. I have seen people using "packs", muckluks, high hiking boots, etc. Snow shoes generally require a good, fairly stiff sole for all day use, though. Plenty of padding for warmth and cusioning. Skiing requires plastic ankle supports. CHECK FIT… Circulation cut-off is real cold weather cause of frost bite. The valleys will be quite cold, still air. Mid regions a little warmer, with high winds(30mph+) to be planned for on any peaks. A 1/4" warmth layer around your feet is about minimum. Plan on more… (But, I have some issues with circulation/diabetes.) A set of down booties will help at night.

I will pass on clothing and shelters… I use a tarp. But I have not camped in winter in several years. I have heard that newer tents may be better….I have my doubts…

Yes, you will need crampons. Some of the peaks will demand them.

Poles will generally need larger baskets and longer length… depends a LOT on the trail conditions, which trails, which way they face, and, weather you are breaking trail…

A shovel may or may not be needed. A large water melting pot often can work nearly as well with only an extra 5 minutes of time needed. Make sure you have good fire building skills and make sure you start a fire on solid ground, not snow or ice.

For New England and NY:
Crampons: There will be conditions where you'll need crampons and ice axe (and training) to safely summit. But you can always turn back if you run into icy steep conditions. You can do a lot with just microspikes and snowshoes, just be absolutely certain not to move onto terrain that require crampons with microspikes.
Common sense: Don't go out if record low temps or a storm are forecast. Be very ready to cancel or turn back if conditions are beyond your equipment and experience.
Snowshoes: You need to bring them and usually carry them. Occasionally you'll know at the trail head that they won't be needed. In the ADK, snowshoes or skis must be used (by law) when there's more than a few inches of snow (6"???).

Try things out in your back yard or next to your car.

Some chapters of the AMC have winter hiking and backpacking classes. I've taken the Worcester and Boston chapter courses and they were excellent (and cheap or free); I know the NH chapter has classes also. AMC also offers classes at Pinkham Notch. winterschool.org also has a great reputation. These are all highly recommended.

There's a mid Jan. BPL group hike in southern VT being planned.

+1 for crampons or at least microspikes. As said above, you can do a lot with snowshoes and microspikes, but you need to be able to recognize when to bail. Look into Hillsound trail pro crampons for a more affordable crampon that is a bit more capable than regular microspikes.

Good info on the bag temp, thanks. So you're saying that mountaineering style boots or heavier insulated boots are not what you use? And you just size bigger and use more socks? I was leaning towards the idea of stiffer insulated boots, you don't think that's necessary? Poles I have are adjustable so they should work ok, I'll get some new baskets. Also thanks for the links.

I checked out the site, they have some good info, thanks. The one thing I'm still really confused about are boots. They tell you to bring boots with removable liners for these hikes, but I literally haven't seen even one boot with a removable liner in the stores when I ask to try on winter/mountaineering boots. The only ones I see with removable liners are sorel-style winter boots that appear WAY too flexible to be convenient in those conditions. Am I wrong about this? What kind of boots are they suggesting that have removable liners? And while I do appreciate their gear list, I won't be spending any nights in a lodge on my trips, and so how would it matter if the liners came out? More info about the boots would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Adam,
First there is an excellent web site by a gentleman who regularly hikes and camps in the White Mountains of NH in winter: http://sectionhiker.com/

Secondly, you might get away with a cheap footwear option in not too cold winter conditions. So far, in temperatures down to 10 degrees (F) I've used summer running shoes with good quality plastic bags over a liner sock, and another over the insulating sock and been quite warm as long as we are hiking. This won't work for a 1/2 hour stationary lunch break, nor will it work in camp. I don't know if it will work at lower temperatures, but I'll be trying to find that out if I can get lower temperatures this winter. You'll need down/synthetic booties in camp. Also a small pad to stand on would help if you're stationary.

These summer running shoes will work with microspike type traction, but not at all with serious crampons. However, on most of the ADK High Peak trails you won't need serious crampons or an ice axe. Snowshoes with claws and hiking poles with big baskets will suffice. If you hit really awful ice, you will just have to judge for yourself and possibly retreat.

Hope this helps.
Marty Cooperman
Cleveland, Ohio

I would highly recommend winter school. I was a student last year, and I picked up alot of the little tricks that make winter mountaineering alot of fun and alot safer. Full disclosure I will be a 1st year instructor this winter, but it is 100% volunteer based. I would recommend sending an email with any questions if you are even remotely interested in winter school. The guys that will respond are very knowledgeable and friendly.

As far as boots go, the majority of students and instructors use plastic boots. I think that is a personal preference. I used my snowboard boots, and will again this year. The best thing you can do is rent from EMS right there in Lake Placid a few times and see what you think of the different boots they have to offer.

PS. It doesn't get any taller than Marcy or Washington in the Northeast, and Washington is a very serious mountain, with the justified claim of worst weather in the world. It has now been passed, by a airport that had a hurricane come through and had higher winds by a few mph, but I don't think anyone will disagree that the mountain consistently has the worst weather around.

Sorry to be a jerk but…

"Secondly, you might get away with a cheap footwear option in not too cold winter conditions. So far, in temperatures down to 10 degrees (F) I've used summer running shoes with good quality plastic bags over a liner sock, and another over the insulating sock and been quite warm as long as we are hiking. This won't work for a 1/2 hour stationary lunch break, nor will it work in camp. I don't know if it will work at lower temperatures, but I'll be trying to find that out if I can get lower temperatures this winter. You'll need down/synthetic booties in camp. Also a small pad to stand on would help if you're stationary."

This is a terrible idea on every level.

"However, on most of the ADK High Peak trails you won't need serious crampons or an ice axe. Snowshoes with claws and hiking poles with big baskets will suffice."

This is 100% wrong, in the fact that every major summit in the high peaks that I have attempted or have climbed in the winter I have needed and used crampons and an ice axe. Ice axe and crampons are used at or above alpine zone 99% of the time

"If you hit really awful ice, you will just have to judge for yourself and possibly retreat."

It is very possible to not find this out before you are on the "awful" ice, and then have to try to get back down and off. This is asking for something bad to happen and needing someone's help in the most remote woods in the Northeast, during the most unforgiving season of the year.

Well, as of about 8-10 years ago, I would use larger sized hiking boots. They really don't need to be huge and heavy mountaineering boots. Sorels were great for icefishing on lakes, more difficult to wear when tramping up or down narrow gorge trails with size 30" snow shoes over 5' of unpredictable snow cover. A lot of the trails up there are fairly narrow, but can be fairly deep. Soo, it is a matter of constant on and off with snowshoes. Sometimes it seems you don't need them. But for general snow shoeing I used a size 11 or so high topped boot. Fairly heavy, with three heavy wool thick socks: two mediums, and a large size. two inside my pants, one outside and over my pants. Often a thin liner sock of some sort to make up thickness.

The socks make the boots feel like sorels, anyway… Oversize, thick, and heavy. You need good foot wear. Keep your feet warm, and as dry as possible. Chances are your feet will sweat a bit…hang them out if they are damp when you get to camp. The dry air at <20F will dry them.

With the newer boots out now, I might try something different, but, that's me. They are lighter, with good breathability without restricting circulation. Stream crossings are always fun, Wring out your socks as well as possible and change one pair for dry ones. Damp feet are better than soaked feet.

"So you're saying that mountaineering style boots or heavier insulated boots are not what you use?"

You certainly won't need a double boot and you won't need a technical boot.

You could get away with a simple insulated winter boot like the Garmont Momentum, TNF Snow Chute or Sorel's Timerberwolf for example. Personally speaking, I would want something with a half or full shank just to make life easier when keeping steps– take a look at the La Sportiva Glacier Boots:

http://www.backcountry.com/la-sportiva-glacier-mountaineering-boot-mens?rr=t&cmp_id=&rrType=ClickCP&rrProd=LSP0019

Socks are just as important– I generally just use a thin polypro liner sock with a thick smartwool type sock. Also remember not too use too many socks or tie your boots too tight because you will slow the circulation to your feet and they will get cold regardless. Another tip to avoid cold feet is to keep your head and core warm at all times– this will prevent your body from shutting down trying to protect your vitals.

Whatever boots and equipment you get, be prepared for rain followed by 10 below zero F or worse.

Years ago I recall friends reporting on frozen boots they couldn't get their feet into, or even ADK winter schools being cancelled due to rain followed by sub-zero temperatures. Back then I recall everyone used Sorel or Bean boots…they took the liners out at night and kept them in their sleeping bags.

more generic answers …

Boots? Need a good insulated pair. My snowshoes are pretty aggressive but I've only used my regular hiking boots with extra socks. Not warm enough. Need something that really works. I want good boots, I plan to do high peaks and there will probably be mixed conditions. Mountaineering boot or hybrid boot?

if you plan to do more technical peaks in the future, get mountain boots … if you plan to be out for longer in cold temps, get boots with removable liners that you can take out at night …. some BPLers use trail runners, overboots, gaiters, goretex socks and thick socks for what is effectively a boot and removable liner … but whatever you do dont screw this part up … as frozen feet means yr a gonner

bring at least a pair of extra socks

Pants? Softshell or hardshell waterproof? I have gaiters already.

softshell …. if its really cold and wet and you plan to be out for days a hardshell may be wanted … note you can wear both the soft and hardshell for extra warmth

Crampons? Can I avoid them? Will my agressive snowshoes do the trick? I'd like to not have to buy these.

there 2 articles you should read … how to kill yrself snowshoeing … and how not to kill yourself snowshoeing .. the author is SAR up here in bc

http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2010/10/how-to-kill-yourself-snowshoeing/

http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2010/11/how-to-not-kill-yourself-snowshoeing/

purchase yr gear accordingly …

Poles – will my summer poles work? Are the baskets too small?

generally winter baskets are bigger … you may need a set…

Do I need a snow shovel?

are you going with someone … what are the avalanche conditions? … that should answer if you need one … whether you want one is a different question

I hike all throughout the NE in the winter months. I will try to answer all our questions the best I can.

Sleeping bag: At the very minimum you should take a quality 0F bag. But a -15F to -30F bag are recommended. You can easily extend the range of your bag with clothing, bivy, tent etc. But you may be in for some chilly nights with just a 0F bag. That being said, I use a 0F top quilt with capaline 2 long john bottoms, cabelas down pants, down booties, capaline 3 top and a nano puff and down vest down to -30F with no issues. As always the hot water in a nalgene is an awesome trick.

Boots: This is a widely personal question and you will recieve lots of different opinions regarding such. I use a pair of TNF Arctic pull ons, and smartwool mountaineering socks while hiking/snowshoeing and am perfectly fine. In camp I use my down booties typically, but with my boots and dry socks I am comfortable to -15F or so. I really like pull ons for winter because they wont freeze to the point where you can't put them back on. And it makes for easy on and off with gloves etc.

Pants: While hiking I typically just use a pair of winter weight BDU pants, if its really cold I wear a pair of capaline 2 long johns. I also have ECWCS goretex pants as a hardshell as needed. In camp I wear cabelas down pants under the bdu pants.

Tent: I use a hammock, tarp with doors, top and under quilts, and a winter hammock sock. Not your norm by any means. Bottom line is you need a solid shelter and not rely on building a snow shelter especially for the first time without practice. If your gonna be basecamping feel free to give it a shot, but its not easy the first time. Even if you do plan on doing a snow shelter, at a bare minimum bring a tarp.

Crampons: This depends. If your going to be going on very steep slopes then yes real crampons and ice axe are needed in alot of places. However, i have been able to get by with microspikes and msr denali ascent snow shoes. The snowshoes crampons can be removed and used seperately, which work ok but arnt near as nice as real crampons. I typically dont try to summit peaks in the winter, simply because I have a dog with me and am solo 99% of the time.

Poles: you do not 'need' snow baskets, but they do come in handy otherwise your poles will sink very far and can be near useless at times. Snow baskets are cheap, alot of brands will fit any pole. You can also make your own with a little ingenuity and some stiffish plastic like milk carton or 2 liters cut up. Old plastic plates etc.

Snow shovel: yes and no, it depends on your trip really. Can be helpful if your digging out a tent site, or if your in avalance areas. If your pack has an hdpe frame sheet they make good make shift shovels as do snow shoes. If your only doing a small area the improvised methods work fine, otherwise you need a real one.

Other gear that is quite useful for winter:
-white gas stove
-2 liter pot for melting snow
-matches, it can be challenging to use a lighter at times to light a stove etc. Matches work much better for winter
-dry gloves for camp(i like a fingerless for camp tasks, or one of those mitts/fingerless combos)
-A hardcore fire starting method for emergencies. I bring 2 sparklers(fireworks) cut into 3 in pieces. They have thermite and magnesium in them and burn about as hot as possible for a material(3000F) and last for a good minute or so and can light even wet tinder. And they are very light weight.
-if out for a longer trip I like to have a weather radio

If you have any other questions feel free to ask

Ok so I'm getting some great more specific feedback, thanks guys. I think its pretty obvious I'll need a -20 bag now, and I'll have to decide between some micro spikes and think about crampons. I still want to avoid them if possible, but I may buckle on that.

I'm still thoroughly confused about the boots, because I'm pretty sure at this point that I don't want a double plastic. But I'm also pretty sure that the bean/sorel style boots aren't going to make me happy. Because I will be doing hiking, snowshoeing, and peaking some mountains in the adirodack high peaks or whites, I want the boots to be more flexible than a plastic, but less flexible than an average bean/sorel boot. But it still leaves me with a boot that doesn't have a removable liner. Could this be a major problem?

I saw these, and they sound pretty ideal for my uses, any feedback on them?

http://www.backcountry.com/lowa-mountain-expert-gtx-boot-mens

How about some ice skates?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EG7kLjpzsM

http://www.altrec.com/columbia/mens-bugaboot-plus-electric-snow-boots?sku_id=1556677&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Froogle-_-Columbia-_-127315-1556677&mr:trackingCode=3F2F02B6-A60B-E111-AC9E-001B2163195C&mr:referralID=NA

Ok I don't know if I should laugh or assume this is awesome because the boots could effectoively de-frost themselves when they freeze… ?

Adam,

I really think you should rethink crampons and ice axe. I think you do NEED these, but you also need to know how to use them properly otherwise they are dead weight. I am always looking for more people to climb with pm me if you want to get together in the High Peaks and I can show you how to use both crampons and an axe. I have an extra axe, you can rent crampons very easily.

As far as boots go. I am with you, I prefer leather boots over Plastic boots. I have never tried on double plastic mountaineering boots, but plastic ski boots are one of the reasons I snowboard. A removable liner is nice but not required. You can use vbl socks and then your boots won't freeze they will just be cold in the morning. But in the Adirondacks and Whites everything about the mornings is cold when you are in a nice warm sleeping bag. This is what I do, I have removable liners, but I don't mess with taking them out I just wear VBL. Or you can do what a friend of mine does, and skip the VBL then just put on frozen boots. It really isn't the end of the world. It's not like your boots become a frozen block of ice, now if it is a longer trip say 5-6 days you may need to go the vbl route for that. If most of your trips are weekend warrior trips then I don't even mess with vbl socks on that short of a trip I just put on frozen boots Sunday morning to walk back to my car and go get breakfast.

So I am far from a mountaineering expert becasue as soon as I discovered skiing that was it, but I have done a little and plenty of snowshoeing. You seem concerned with boots and economy.

I have a pair of Rossignol French army surplus mountaineering double boots that I bought for $40. They are a plastic lower/ leather upper blend with an inner boot and plenty warm. They are lighter and more comfortable than the full plastics I was looking at at the time (1999). They have vibram soles, great traction, step kicking ability, and accept all types of crampons. I have no idea if they are around the internet anywhere but if you could find them they are a great intro mountaineering boot for not much more than the cost of a weekend rental.

With the BPL NE trip coming up I was trying to think of a lighter, more comfortable option if I am able to attend, as it is not a great ski route(for my ability at least). I also wouldn't want to spend too much since I don't spend alot of time snowshoeing. My thoughts are that I'd go with either overboots for my three season footwear or get lightly insulated wp/b one piece light hikers (probably from LL Bean or Cabelas because I have huge feet and am cheap) Both ideas would require a vbl type system for warmth. This would work well for snowshoeing and some hardsnow/ice with walking crampons or microspikes. I do think though that in my admittedly very limited mountaineering experience if my focus was on the higher NE winter peaks I would be more comfortable with a stiffer more mountaineering focused boot.

For shelter I always go with a mid or tipi design. Storm worthy, lightweight, no floor to worry about. I replaced my worn out BD megamid with a lighter GoLite SL3 bought at the annual 40% off sale.

Once temps get below freezing, I think removable insulation on your feet is important. That insulation might be socks at warmer sub-freezing temps.

I think using a vapor barrier on your feet is important below 20F to keep your socks and other insulation dry and still functional. I use turkey-size oven bags over a thin liner sock.

Consider Camuks by Steger Mukluks. Waterproof to ankle, flexible, removable liner. I'm experimenting with a similar footwear system using Tingley rubber overboots, mukluk liner, and NEOS EVA foam insole.