Inverted Canister Stove Winter Fuel Consumption

[Eric Swab]

I used the MSR Windpro for the first time this past weekend, the canister was inverted. I took a brand new small (net 3.8 ounces) Snow Peak canister. I was kind of shocked how fast it used fuel, it ran out melting snow after breakfast on day two.

In my mind it didn't do much work, the trip was two days, heated water for lunch (12oz), made dinner and a hot drink with water from a stream, melted about 1 1/2 quarts of snow that night, then breakfast, then maybe melted another quart of snow before the canister ran out. I was using the windscreen with a 1.5 liter pot and keep shaking it until it finally ran dry. Evening and morning temps were about 15 degrees, I kept the canister in my sleeping bag.

It looks like to me if I wanted two hot lunches, one dinner, and one breakfast and had to actually melt snow (instead of using some from a stream) the 8oz would be close especially with lower temps. There are things I could do to improve pot and screen efficiency some.

How much canister fuel are you taking per day for winter trips?

I also could exchange it at REI for a Whisperlight or may try to hang on for the new Universal stove.

Thanks

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Eric,

Your fuel use sounds a little high. Was this a solo trip? My planning number for trips where I'll be melting snow is about 60g per day for a two person team and maybe 40g per day for a solo trip.

Of course you want to use the windscreen. I try to arrange the screen so there's about a thumb's width of clearance all the way around the pot, but no more. And definitely use the heat reflector underneath the stove.

Were you running the stove with a pretty high flame? The higher you turn up the stove, the more fuel you'll burn to melt the same amount of snow.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[USA Duane Hall]

To me, melting snow takes a long time and burns the fuel up. I've used a small MSR canister for a 8 day summer trip, heating 12 oz. water in the evenings. I only use my old Int'l in the winter on snow trips.
Duane

[Eric Swab]

Jim,

Thanks for the guidelines, it was a solo trip, used the bottom heat reflector and had the windscreen at about a one inch gap. I tried to keep the flame as low as possible but it seemed like the longer it ran the higher I would have to turn the knob to keep a good flame, figured it was due the canister cooling and pressure lowering, but when melting snow I had it all the way open. I wanted to make a cozy but didn't have time before I left.

My pot measures 5" diameter by 5.5" tall, I think a shorter wider one would be better. Maybe a different pot or using a bell shaped lid is the answer along with the cozy.

What is your pot of choice with this stove for solo winter?

Eric

[Eric Swab]

Duane,

I have a pocket rocket but haven't used it much, seems like the original canister lasted forever, mostly on car camping trips. May still switch to whisperlite but it seemed like from what I read the windpro can work well in the winter too.

Eric

[Stuart R]

Those quantities look about right to me – melting snow uses a lot of fuel. In fact, just melting a lump of snow requires the same amount of heat as heating the resulting water to 176F (80C). So, to make boiling water from snow uses about double the fuel than if you started with water.

I recon the small 100g canisters are good to boil 6 litres/quarts water so if you are melting snow as well that would equate to 3 litres/quarts.

A heat exchanger pot will help reduce fuel use, but if you expect to have to melt a lot of snow, a liquid fuel stove may work out cheaper in the long run.

[Nick Gatel]

HJ is the expert on stoves, so defer to his advice.

But my experience last year using the Wind Pro in snow was not stellar. First, I did not do the modification to make it easier to invert the canister. So inverting it was an inconvenience. I used the reflector and set up the windscreen properly. Had the same issue of needing to constantly adjust the flame when temps were in the 20s F. And it seemed to use a lot of fuel. I had several partially used canisters on my desk I was going to weigh and determine the actual amount of fuel used, but ended up skipping that exercise. There was just too much of a fiddle factor with the Wind Pro. Maybe all of this is user error.

I am going back to my Dragonfly this winter. I also have a Whisperlite, but since I am using a larger pot than normal to melt snow in winter, I prefer the Dragonfly. I don't mind the jet engine noise of the Dragonfly, as it tells me the stove is burning :) For me the Dragonfly is easy to use and I have confidence in its reliability. Yes, it weighs more… but doesn't everything in winter?

[Hikin’ Jim]

Nick, I'm surprised to see so much flame "fade" in the 20's F.
Eric, You were running in a little colder temps, so flame fade makes a little more sense, but I'm surprised you had to adjust the knob so much.

Putting the canister in liquid water will moderate canister temperature changes and should give you a more consistent flame. You can use a little butter/margarine tub (very light) with a CCF cozy around it for the water. If that's too much fiddle factor, then the Whisperlite may very well be a better choice. Your fuel consumption will probably be higher with a Whisperlite, maybe 75g/day for solo use because of priming. I've got some tips for how to get the most out of white gasoline stoves if you are interested.

For solo snow melting, I usually take a plain 1000ml Snow Peak Ti pot. It's not the most efficient. My Jetboil 1500ml (I think it's 1500ml) GCS pot is more efficient, but in calculations published by Tony B (a BPL member), he found that the weight of the heat exchanger was greater than the weight of the fuel savings.

Nick, I too have used a Dragonfly for snow melting. It's heavy, but it CRANKS out the heat. It's also very stable with a big pot. It is freakin' loud though. You can get after market "silent" caps, but they're very expensive. I know a guy who is DIY'ing some new models of after market silent caps. I'll post on BPL what his prices will be like if and when he makes them publicly available.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Nick Gatel]

Jim,

I think part of the problem was the canister was not perfectly inverted. It had a little bit of an angle, because the hose needs to be twisted to invert it so I may not have been consistent liquid feed. I did not want to do the modification that Roger Caffin posted, because working in my warm garage versus on a mountain are two different things. The new Wind Pro is designed to be inverted and would be much easier. I am tempted to buy one and see. I haven't checked to see if they are available, but it seems like a much better option versus the old Wind Pro. But I am still leaning towards the Dragonfly. Don't mind the roar, the supports are better, I can see how much fuel is in the bottle, and I can warm my hands at the same time :)

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Nick,

That's possible (that you didn't completely invert the canister).

I haven't found it hard to invert the canister. The hose on my Windpro is pretty darned flexible. I just lean it up against something, and it stays put pretty well.

The new Windpro II does look like it'll be a little more convenient in that it swivels AND comes with a canister stand. Worth paying extra for? Not sure.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Paul McLaughlin]

A little comparison:
The use you describe amounts to what I would call one day of stove use – one breakfast, one dinner – plus you heated water for lunch. You used 110 grams of fuel.

On a 7 cooking-day trip with two people using a Simmerlite white gas stove, where we found liquid water 2 nights out of the 7, we averaged 101 grams of fuel.

On an 8 cooking-day trip with 2 people, where we found liquid water all but one night, we averaged 72 grams of fuel per day.

On a 5 cooking-day solo trip where I only had to melt snow one night, using a whisperlite, I used 51 grams of fuel per day.

So your consumption does seem high when you consider that a gram of canister gas has a little more energy in it than white gas does.

[Eric Swab]

@Nick – It is easy to flip the connection so the canister inverts.

@Jim – My usage was probably high due to inexperience with canister stoves, I have used a pocket rocket sometimes (day hikes, car camping, fair weather) and it always has a nice constant flame, and a canister has lasted forever.

I am sure that as the flame started lowering and I started cranked the valve open I was wasting fuel with the Windpro.

@Paul – Thank you for the detailed fuel usage of white gas stoves.

I think I am mostly concerned about performance under harsher conditions like having to melt snow daily, colder temps, and longer trips. The ability to just safely turn it on is great, but having to carry several canisters is not appealing. The more I think about it we have trips to Canada and Alaska planned over the next three years so having a flexible fuel stove, with the ability to bring the amount of fuel we need makes sense, I am going to try an Whisperlite.

When does the Universal come out?

Is unleaded gas similar in performance to white gas?

Eric

[USA Duane Hall]

Per the MSR reps we met in Oregon at a stovie meetup over Labor Day, MSR has to wait now for regulatory approval to market their new stoves. May be this Spring.

The other thing we may not be thinking about concerning isobutane versus white gas is the cost. A $8-$11 gallon of Coleman fuel will go further than the 2 or 3 canisters you could get for the same money. Both have their place though.
Duane

[Diplomatic Mike]

I was given this tip years ago, and it works for me.
Actually turning snow into liquid water uses the most fuel, so after your last boil of the evening, store some of that water in a bottle (i use a Platy) and keep it in your sleeping bag overnight. In the morning, start heating the water and then add the snow. You only need a few ounces of water, and the snow will melt much quicker than if you were using just pure snow.

[Richard Fischel]

yep – i try never to start melting snow from scratch. always appears to works better to have some water in the pot first.

[James holden]

the denser the snow … the less wasted fuel i find …

[Hikin’ Jim]

I think I am mostly concerned about performance under harsher conditions like having to melt snow daily, colder temps, and longer trips. The ability to just safely turn it on is great, but having to carry several canisters is not appealing. The more I think about it we have trips to Canada and Alaska planned over the next three years so having a flexible fuel stove, with the ability to bring the amount of fuel we need makes sense, I am going to try an Whisperlite.

If you're going into seriously cold weather, liquid fuel is a good option. White gasoline (e.g. Coleman fuel) is a pretty economical way to do things that require a lot of heat (like melting snow). You can also get 1.0L or even 1.5L bottles, so you don't have to carry multiple containers of fuel. MSR stoves are compatible with Sigg, Optimus, Snow Peak, Brunton, and of course MSR fuel bottles. I've had trouble hooking MSR pumps to Primus bottles even though the threads are the same, the Primus threads start further down, and the MSR pumps can't get purchase. Coleman and Soto fuel bottles are not compatible with MSR stoves.

Is unleaded gas similar in performance to white gas?

No. Unleaded doesn't burn cleanly and tends to foul stoves. You can do it, but you'll have to clean the stove way more often. You'll need to know how to clean and maintain the stove. Make sure you get a maintenance kit, probably the Expedition one if you want to burn unleaded. I wouldn't recommend it unless you just can't get anything else. Diesel is even worse. MSR lists a whole bunch of fuels their stoves can burn. But being able to burn a fuel and having that fuel be a good fuel are two different things. The best two liquid fuels are white gasoline and kerosene. Always use those two liquid fuels unless you just don't have any other options.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[USA Duane Hall]

If/when using kerosene, be sure to ask for or get K-1, water clear. Stove oil stinks.
Duane

[Eric Blumensaadt]

To me canister stoves are really 3-season stoves. The inverted versions work RELIABLY in "cool" weather (down to freezing). Reliability is the key word.

Below that you REALLY need a pressurized liquid fuel stove (NOT alcohol).
Also a good gassifier type wood stove works very well, say a Bush Buddy or, my fav, the CC Sidewinder Inferno. Carry ESBIT fuel tabs as fire starters. Wood gassifier stoves, by their virtue of having a double wall, work well even in windy conditions. And when you take teh pot off a wood stove you have a nice, windproof campfire. Don't worry that it will be too small. The old Indian saying applies here.
"White man build big fire, no can get close. Indian build small fire, get close and warm."

Like so much of winter camping proper equipmet is really a matter of safety. You MUST have water so you must melt snow. If a canister stove fails or runs out of fuel too soon you're forced to use a wood fire… IF there's wood available.

Finally, regarding lighting all types of fires: survival experts agree that you should carry three types of igniters. i.e. storm matches, 2 lighters and something like Firesteel and a block of magnesium. When it comes to winter fires the "belt and suspenders" attitude is virtually mandatory.

[Hikin’ Jim]

If/when using kerosene, be sure to ask for or get K-1, water clear. Stove oil stinks.
Duane

Good point. For kerosene, don't get home heating oil/stove oil/fuel oil#2. Get K-1 "water white" clear kerosene or "Kleen Heat" kerosene "substitute".

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

To me canister stoves are really 3-season stoves. The inverted versions work RELIABLY in "cool" weather (down to freezing). Reliability is the key word.

Not quite sure where you're coming from there. With good fuel, an upright canister stove should be good down to about 20F, and an inverted canister stove should be good down close to 0F (fuel temperatures not ambient temperatures).

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Roger Caffin]

> To me canister stoves are really 3-season stoves. The inverted versions work RELIABLY
> in "cool" weather (down to freezing). Reliability is the key word.
With all due respect, I suggest that the key part of this statement is 'to me'. After all, many of us who spend a lot of time in the snow do use canister stoves, with great success and great reliability. All the time.

It has been suggested that you can only use an inverted canister stove down to about -20 C. That is only true under worst case conditions. If you are carrying a water bottle in your pack and it hasn't frozen, then clearly it has not got below 0 C. Most likely the warmth of your back has helped a bit here. If your gas canister is next to the water bottle it is probable that it has not got much colder than 0 C either. In which case the ambient temperature of -20 C is not really relevant. Once your stove has started running it is no problem to keep the canister 'warm', like around 0 C. Overnight – keep it tucked under or inside your quilt/SB. Yes, it's a vital item.

> survival experts agree that you should carry three types of igniters. i.e. storm
> matches, 2 lighters and something like Firesteel and a block of magnesium.
Carrying more than one source of fire is undoubtedly good. But whether that has to be more than one type of source is quite another question. I carry storm-proof matches sealed up and two Bic lighters. One of the Bics is also sealed up. I have never had to get out either the second Bic or the matches. (The latter have been sealed up for 20+ years – why do I bother to even carry them?)

The 'block of magnesium' idea is just plain raving stupid, for several very good reasons. The first is the obvious question of how do you light the darn thing? For that you need a source of fire. But if you have that already … The second is the problem of lighting a 'block of magnesium'. Has anyone ever tried this? It is almost impossible without a gas torch, and it conducts heat so well. Now thin magnesium wire – that can be lit with a Bic and some skill, but if you have the Bic … The third problem is what in the blazes do you do with a burning lump of magnesium? It's going to be way above 3,000 C: how do you hold it, where do you put it, what do you do with it, and how do you extinguish it? If it came into contact with your body it would simply burn straight through you.

Mind you, I do carry a very small sealed capsule of Esbit chips. They can be used to help start a wood fire in extremis, but again I have never needed them. Vital? I doubt it.

With all due respect, I suggest that those self-styled 'survival experts' are mostly irrelevant couch turkeys. Those guys spend all their time setting up disaster scenarios each of which only requires a (different) kilogram of gear to handle, and which will never happen in real life anyhow. The fact is that so many of us have handled all sorts of extreme conditions without any of their gear. The one thing you really need is the ability to stop and think. After that, ordinary walking gear is quite enough.

Cheers
;-)

[James Marco]

Well said guys!

[Bob Gross]

I'm quite surprised at Roger's statement about "raving stupid." It seems like he doesn't know how to use a magnesium bar for fires.

Of course you don't use the whole magnesium bar for a fire. You use your knife to carve off little magnesium flakes until you have a tiny pile. Then you use your lighter, matches, or firesteel to ignite the flakes. Magnesium flakes or magnesium ribbon will burn very rapidly and very intensely, so magnesium is used as a hot ignition system for the real fuel which may be compromised, like wet wood. That is what makes it so practical for a real emergency situation, and not so much for an ordinary fair-weather situation.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

Being paranoid, er, prudent I mean, my own personal cut off for gas is somewhere around 0F/-18C. Yes, canister warming can get you through in temperatures much colder than that, but I've had "stuff" happen in the winter backcountry before. Again, this may be my own personal paranoia stemming from some very serious things that have happened to me, but I am not willing to rely on a fuel that must be warmed before use. Warming to improve performance makes perfect sense, but having a fuel that I must warm to use at all seems to risky to me. Everyone of course needs to make his or her own personal assessment of risk. I also have several liquid fueled stoves in my inventory and am not put off by priming even inside a tent vestibule since I typically prime with alcohol which does not flare and fireball the way that white gasoline does. Your mileage not only may but will vary.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

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