No one wants a 40 liter 15 ounce framed pack right ?

I can't tell if you're joking? A 15oz pack that carries 30 pounds comfortably… Sounds pretty good to me…

nope i'm a 100 % serous the pack is a normal " newest gen" AEG AssaultX2 with 70d sil body, dyneema grid bottom and straps, full wrap around waistbelt, cozy wide shoulder straps, and a large divadable pocket. the frame is carbon fiber tubes with aluminum elbow joints. Pics coming soon Its dark here and i need to tease you guys some =)

Well it sounds interesting, but if you're not going to share it, then why bother posting?

i will have good pics up tomorrow i couldn't get any before dark today i just wanted to spur the conversation a little before all the info came for the pack

I am seriously interested. How much? I wouldn't be able to pay for it for a month though.

Also, is it designed to use your pad in combination with the frame?

"so i'll just toss the sd card with the pics and burn the pack right ?"

According to you the pics are already on an SD card…

William,

You may be right about lack of interest. I've posted a similar MYOG pack for 10 plus years and very few people have shown interest. The myog aspect of it may be why. Most people like to buy things ready to go.

Z Packs' Exos should test the waters. It has many of the features you mention. You might ask them how it is selling.

Daryl

I've been thinkings its about time for a SUL style pack with a frame. I've been surprised there hasn't been more interest in the zpacks exo pack.

The problem people are often not interested is because carry comfort is highly subjective, and most people people generally find the rated weights to be HIGHLY optimistic.

I've never met a "UL" style framed pack that carried 30lb comfortably. Tolerably? Yes certainly, but maybe my idea of comfort and yours are different.

The most weight capable frame I've met in that style is GG's gorilla, unfortunately, it's a massively uncomfortable pack due to the rest of it's design, so it's null. (The reason the frame is good is because it's a single piece U shape, pre-bent higher modulus Al alloy)

The ULA Ohm style frame is good for up to 20ish lbs, I seriously doubt any other carbon fiber straight shaft on the sides design is going to do better.

Now the Goat Pack will actually carry real weight comfortably, but it weighs 40+ ounces. Reason? It has a real frame.

I think it's about time we stop referring to a couple of random material stays as "frames", because they're not. Especially when they're made from carbon fiber arrow shafts or 1/8th inch hardware store scrap aluminum. I'm sorry, but a stuff sack with stays, is not a framed pack.

That's my rant, having not seen your pack William, I'm not commenting on it directly. So I hope you don't take offense.

The bigger question, why would we need a SUL pack with stays? If you're SUL, you shouldn't need stays.

My Ion is completely comfortable with ~10lb pack weights, the stays would just add unnecessary extra weight, and probably create discomfort.

There's a reason there's a distinction between pack types and classes. There are other design elements in play beyond just the stays in a load carrier, not the least of which, is reinforcing the pack body interfaces between the stays. Anybody that's used a LW "stayed" pack for any amount of time can tell you how much damage those stays ultimately do on the pack body.

Is there room to lighten up? Sure. I stripped a third of the weight off my Ohm by replacing everything but the back panel with cuben, but it's nothing revolutionary, and would drive the price of production up quite a bit.

I agree that I don't see the point of adding stays to some frameless packs. My problem with frameless packs is not that the "frame" i.e. folded foam pad, collapses under weight. I rarely carry more than 20 pounds so this is not a problem. I have two issues withe frameless packs that aren't really going to be solved with carbon fiber rods or similar frames.

1. The load seems to shift around on my back, more no matter how well packed it is. Compared to this my internal frame pack (BPL Absaroka) seems to stabolize the load a lot better.

2. A frameless pack is basically flat on the back while my Absaroka has a much more sophisticated design that fits the curve of my back. I know that the softer frameless pack can comform to your back but that also means it can twist and bulge in uncomfortable ways (see problem number 1).

I still like to us frameless pack in some areas partly because they are my best option.
I would like to see a framed SUL type pack because I think it would fit better and ultimately be more comfortable even if it was a tad heavier. Right now I use a short thermarest prolite most of the time because I got tired of waking up sore in the morning. But it doesn't make as good a frame as a foam pad so now when I go SUL or close to it, I'm using a couple ounces of foam pad to stiffen up my pack plus carrying my thermarest. Not horrible but I might as well have a true frame in the pack. I doubt if a neoair or similar pad would work well for a "virtual frame."

Yep, it's all subjective. Doesn't mean my interest isn't piqued. though… look forward to hearing more about it William!

Okay now that I stated all my complaints and Javen has given some things to think about anybody got an idea how to make a SUL pack other than carbon fiber stays on the side. No offense to those who make or like that design its just that its already been done. I'm interested in any other ideas out there for a SUL pack that could handle 15-20 max but with a better fit than a frameless pack.

I've got a few ideas, that I'll eventually get around to protoing.

The main focus would have to be designing the frame and moving from there. Carbon Fiber is a great choice, but it's not for the average MYOGer. The Goat Pack and the Kuiu CF frame are excellent examples of what is possible, and bear in mind they're built to support insane loads.

The main problem though, is hitting totally frame-less weights with a frame. There's no way you're going to take the same frameless pack, add a frame and it weigh the same or less. You've got to drop weight somewhere. Usually in the pack fabric (a compromise in strength and durability) or in the notions and hardware, which can also share the same compromises, and in the case of less robust straps and hipbelts, reduces the effective comfort.

I seriously doubt we're going to see a 15oz pack that'll *comfortably* carry 30+lbs without some serious refinement of the frame, and even still I'm skeptical. 20oz as a guess, I think would be do-able, with Carbon Fiber or a skeletonized 7075 Al frame, and Cuben.

edit: spelling etc.

Well I hope I'll see your ideas someday, I agree start with a frame and work around that.
One way to save some weight might be smaller packs. For SUL style loads you only need 1500-2000 cubic inches so that ruduces the weight slightly. 15oz might be optimistic without a lot of cuban but closer to 1.5 pounds or less seems reasonable (I know the Ohm is in this weight class but it doesnt count for me for reasons alrady discussed – its not a true internal frame pack).
Any thoughts on the basic design of the zpacks exo? I could see the straight stays being somewhat of an issue for getting the proper fit. I would assume the crosspeice would be an improvement over just putting the two carbon fiber stays on the side (which doesn't do much apparently). I was thinking of a similar design but with two crosspeices. Basically like an external frame pack. The only other idea I could come up with would be to take a U shaped frame similar to whats in the Absaroka and put it in a smaller pack. I'd make the hipbelt a bit thinner but still more than webbing and add minimal padding at the top and bottom. Any thoughts (hopefully I'll try one or both of these at some point).

one interesting thing about the ohm's hoop, is that it's compressed into the pack body panels, so that really does reduce the twist and sway compared to other similar CF rod designs.

I can't comment on Joe's pack, I would be concerned with the straight lateral shaft interfering with my back/shoulder area, unless it's really high, and then I'd be concerned about the volume just being way too high for me.

Unfortunately the pack body fabric is the least weight consumptive part of a pack design, so there's not a ton of potential savings by reducing the volume there, although the volume concern is definitely valid, since I find anything larger than my Ion too large for my 3 season gear list, which necessitates heavy and effective compression on larger volume pack designs (like the ohm).

i dont see what all the fuss is about … when i need to carry 40+ lbs in my mutant … not very often as my knees will give out at that point … i just stick a 4 oz thin pine board between the bivy pad in my osprey mutant … i can say that it works better than those light aluminum stays and is lighter than heavier packs with the more durable aluminum stays … for me anyways

not to mention it didnt cost me a dime … just used some extra wood lying around … and it took like 5 min to cut

if it doesnt work … then theres always the option of spending $$$$ on another pack ;)

i would bet a marmot that if you tried something similar in yr UL pack, stuffing 1mm or so pine board between the zrest people use as a frame, it would significantly improve the carrying "comfort" capacity on frameless packs with good waistbelts … for basically no cost

sometimes we over think things …

I haven't played with an Ohm much, sounds like they are a bit better than I would have thought.

I agree with the concern about straight stays. I might try protyping with cheap material and see what I end up with but I'm a bit skepitical.

I agree with you on volume. I just don't need the volume of the big packs so even if weight savings is minimal I'd be happy to see a smaller one come out. I may be the minority here since most people with smaller lighter loads seem perfectly happy with a frameless pack.
I was assuming from looking at different packs I've owned and MYOG projects that you could save a couple oz on size. Not much but combine that with lighter fabrics in a few areas (like the extension coller, and front where there's little abrasion), lighter hipbelt etc. and I think you could have a very reasonably light pack with a lot better fit (I'd think 1 to 1.5 lbs). I'd rather carry say 1.5 pounds of pack that fits well and is sized right for my load than 3/4 pound of pack that doesn't fit quit as well. Right now my choices are a very light pack that sacrifices a bit in fit, or a very well fitted pack thats got more volume than I need.

If one is super interested in the ultimate "frame" material its balsawood not carbon fiber. It is the pinultimate material in this world for a strength to weight ratio, but not as durable as say carbon fiber, though there are ways to get around that as well.

When someone comes out with a Balsawood laminated frame, then you know you are looking at the best. Until then, everyone else is just 2nd place. Of course everyones back is different profile so making such a "frame" would be horrendously expensive.

All these packs with rectangular cross section stays are woefully heavy for the strength they give. But, creating them and bending them to the correct shape is fairly easy and readily available. That is why we have such "frames."

Hollow C-F tubes are better. If done correctly should be really good.

I look forward to his design. It could be a climber friendly pack.

As for backpacking, well… Lots of options out there.

I liked the guys MYOG backpack using CF rods with a front pack that went by here in the last year. It incorporates getting the weight off of your shoulders and onto your hips just like McHale backpacks do. He also went a step further with a frontal pack to balance the weight so one gets the joy of walking upright. One of the reasons I pretty much going with a small mountaineering pack and gear as said gear is hanging around my neck or tied to top of pack and hanging over my front(Rope/Pro) balancing the load allowing vertical walking instead of hunched walking.

Javan,

"I've never met a "UL" style framed pack that carried 30 lb comfortably."

Let me offer some words of encouragement.

My experience has been different from yours. For at least 10 years I have routinely carried 30 lbs with my 1 pound, myog, frame pack as comfortably as any other pack that I have owned.

I've also made a frame pack for my wife (12 ounces) and one for a friend of mine (16 ounces). They gave up their much heavier external and internal frame packs and now use the ones I made for them.

I don't know if I could successfully make one for you or others (and am not willing to try). So far, however, it is three for three. In each case it took a lot of trial and error to get good results. I'm still tweaking my friend's pack but my wife and I are content with ours.

Soooo, I would encourage you and others to keep experimenting. I'm more satisfied with my 1 lb frame pack than any other piece of gear I own.

Daryl

Daryl, we are interested in some nice descriptive photos of your work. Thank you.

Same here. I have a 2005 model Six Moon Designs Comet (discontinued little brother of their Starlite) and have carried 37 lbs. in it (using the "optional" stays). My shoulders, back and hips were fine, although my knees and feet were screaming!

The extra burden was the ashes of a relative who wanted them scattered at a location about 14 miles from the nearest trailhead. I never realized that "cremains" weigh so much! Never again! I immediately changed my own funeral instructions to specify a spot about 3 miles from the trailhead! Evidently someone up there agrees with me, because a recent forest fire in the area completely skipped the beautiful place I have in mind!

Balsa wood laminate for a frame sounds like an interesting idea–it could be made to contour to the back, which carbon fiber doesn't. For me, I absolutely have to have load lifters to keep the shoulder straps off my very pressure-sensitive shoulders. They are the only reason I could manage the 37 lbs.!

Not everyone carries an SUL pack (mine is on the borderline between "lightweight" and "UL"), and even those who do may sometimes be in the situation of going a long period without resupply or doing a desert hike where they need to carry a gallon or two of water, or maybe even in my situation. Assuming it were equally as comfortable as my Comet, I certainly would love a framed pack just under a pound (mine is just under 2 pounds)!

The bigger question, why would we need a SUL pack with stays? If you're SUL, you shouldn't need stays.

Unless there's SUL water or southern California starts getting at least 40" of rain along the PCT, I'm going to want a pack that's still comfortable when carrying over a gallon of water. On my last hike I was using one of William's packs and it was tolerable when carrying 5 liters, and it certainly made me wish I didn't have to carry all that weight on my shoulders when I was filled up on water. Fortunately I only had to carry 2 days of food on the last trip instead of 3-5 days for other hikes along other areas of the PCT.