Eugene Smith is a beast

[Mike M]

was going to start a new thread, but lots of experienced folks already looking at this :)

lets say you were (theoretically :)) looking at entering this race- technical (as in rough terrain) 20 mile race

http://www.winddrinkers.org/BRR/BridgerRidge.html

and lets say (theoretically :)) that you current fitness level running is a couple of relatively difficult 5k trails/week (~40 minutes)

can someone recommend a rough training outline, my goal would be more than just to finish (but well short of winning)

danke

[Anonymous]

"My first official race, ever, was a marathon."

Same here, Craig, at age 40.

"So I don't agree that you have to race short and build up…at least not in official races. I think it's especially unnecessary if you're simply running to finish vs. truly "racing". If you're training for a 50 mile, you'll have run so many 5ks, 10ks, and HMs in the process that you'll understand pacing simply from training.

I don't necessarily disagree with your perspective; Rather, the point I was trying to make is that it is a lot safer for most folks to build up gradually by beginning with short runs/races to allow the body to adapt cardio-vascularly and soft tissue wise before getting into a situation where they're going to be pounding away for probably, as you mentioned, 10-14 hours. I probably shouldn't have used the term race. It would have been better to say "run". I suspect both our perspectives were shaped by that all important first experience. The difference is that it seems you went from there in the direction of ultra whereas I went in the direction of shorter races, although we both dabbled in the other end of the spectrum. I saw a fair number of guys who moved up, very successfully, from shorter racing to ultras, simply because they felt they would do better competitively at those distances. I moved down for the same reason. I am talking about guys who were running in the 35-36 minute range for 10K and hovering around 3 hours for the marathon, most of them in their late 30's and early 40's. With this background, it is no surprise they got down close to 7 hours in some cases, sub 7 in the case of Hannaford, because they had already developed the leg speed along with the cardio and soft tissue adaptation necessary to support that kind of effort at much longer distances once they altered their training. In my case, I ran 2:54 the first time out, and 2:45 9 months later, but I was seduced by much better results at 5-10K, local 8-10 milers, and The Dipsea to concentrate on that end of the spectrum. However, the training involved was almost equivalent to marathon training and enabled me to at least finish a 50 miler, but I paid a heavy price. It was not adequate to do it in good style and, although I avoided structural injury, I was severely depleted and had a lousy "rest of the season". I mention all this as background for my position that it is better for a beginner to start at the short end of the spectrum and build up. The only exception to what I have described that I personally know of was the guy I paced in the WS 100. He never raced shorter stuff and concentrated from the very beginning on ultra's. He finished in 22 hours and change so his experience supports your premise, but he is unique in my personal experience.

Finishing vs racing = apples vs oranges. No argument there, although sometimes the alchemy of success transmutes an apple into an orange. ;)

[W I S N E R !]

I'll take a crack at that Mike…

It looks like you'd have 10 months to train, which is a ton. Outside of base building, the "real" training likely wouldn't have to start until 16-20 weeks from your race. It's 20 miles, but technical and full of elevation, so I'd wager that following an intermediate-level marathon program would have you more than covered in mileage and intensity…but make sure to do the majority of running on trail, most importantly your long runs. Race-specific training.

I started with Hal Higdon (halhigdon.com) for marathons, tailored his plans to fit my schedule. He's an old-school coach that's got a ton of free sample training plans on his site, most in the 16-20 week range. They're the typical +10% volume/week, usually running 5-6 days/week, with a step back recovery week every so often. They typically will include a few shorter runs (ranging from 3-5 miles, one of which will be a recovery run, one a speed/tempo run- faster than race pace), a medium run (6-12 miles at goal race pace), and a long run ( 13-23 miles, slower than race pace- just building time on the feet).

You've got so much time, you could easily follow a beginner marathon program long before your more race-specific training starts, then step into a slightly more intense intermediate program. That would allow you to get your head around your pacing and goal time for the actual race.

I think programs like his (most marathon programs are very similar) are a great place to start, just to get your head around what a regular training schedule/volume buildup looks like. Then you tailor to your own strengths, schedule, and terrain from there.

[Anonymous]

"and lets say (theoretically :)) that you current fitness level running is a couple of relatively difficult 5k trails/week (~40 minutes)"

Work up slowly to relatively difficult 20 mile trail runs. As close as your body will tolerate to what you will encounter in the race. If you can do some of your later runs on segments of the actual course, so much the better.

"can someone recommend a rough training outline, my goal would be more than just to finish (but well short of winning)"

At the end of your training cycle, if time permits, get out on the actual course and run as much of it as you can. Probably with a partner on a race of this nature, in case something goes bad. I say this because on a race as difficult as this, you are going to be pretty tired in the latter stages, and knowing what to expect will be invaluable. Along the lines of the WS 100. The serious runners all do part of their training on the course, or used to. I doubt that has changed.

[W I S N E R !]

I agree Tom…I think we might be saying the same thing. Either way, a person has to start small and build up; doesn't matter if it's in training or in racing or both. The point is, it has to happen. Nobody jumps straight into multiple hour runs. I remember when I did my first non-stop 30 minute run and thought it was a big deal…because at the time, it was. It could've been an official 5K or a neighborhood run and the result would've been the same…building up to longer (or faster) distances. I guess the main difference is that some people hang at the shorter distances and focus on speed whereas others (like myself) get excited about going further.

I still have the "ultra" bug, but I often feel like a complete hack because I'm pretty slow (though close, I still have never broken 4 in a road marathon)…Sometimes I want to dismiss getting into ultrarunning and focus on qualifying for Boston…there's a beast of a goal. I'm more intimidated by the thought of that than simply finishing a 50 mile. To each their own!

[George Matthews]

Really good information from both you experienced runners and your renegades.

I've never raced in an official race. So far I run a bit over 10K runs usually on Saturday and Sunday and then something shorter Tue, Wed or Thur. So I'm now less than 20 miles per week – three days per week. But the 10k distance is not a strain to me. Based on my current times for 10K I would be at the back of pack based on the times I see. My gut feel is that I'm a slower pace but longer distance runner.

My plan is to keep adding time and distance to those. I am going to try to run 4 days some weeks. I want to be able to run 10 miles three times per week as my next goal.

What is helping me so far, I think, is giving myself ample recovery after the Sat and Sun runs. With only one run either Tue, Wed, Thur. I plan to always rest on Fridays and Mondays even if I run 2 or 3 days Tue-Thur.

I'm going to be careful, but see if I can increase my runs on Sat and Sun over the next couple of months. For now I will focus more on time than distance. Like to run ten 10 minute miles (1hr 40min) or nine 11 min miles (about the same time). Something like that.

I hope we can keep this thread going for a while. I really appreciate all of you sharing your knowledge.

Dream Goal: finish a 50 Mile race

[Anonymous]

"I think we might be saying the same thing."

Yup. I think we're pretty much on the same page. No surprise there. Toward the end of the racing stage of my running career, I came to realize that speed was a bit over rated. There's always someone faster, and the ever present danger of injury; for what, a few seconds off your 5K time? For which you risk an early end to an activity that yields pure joy and exultation like no other I have ever experienced. Quite frankly, looking back, I wish I had spent more time trail running.

From what I know of you, you shouldn't be intimidated about qualifying for Boston. You're a tough enough guy, and intelligent enough, that if you set your mind to it, you'll do what is necessary without breaking yourself in the process. It's just a question of deciding if that's what you want to do.

[Art …]

Mike

How far do you live from the course?
Have you ever been on any portion of the course?

The Garmin map shows elevation gain = 5937 ft , elevation loss = 8731 ft
1. that's quite a bit for a 20 miler
2. it is net downhill almost 3,000 feet with last 5 miles all downhill.

so my main focus would be hill work, especially downhill work.
you won't be running the uphills at your level so learn and practice fast uphill power walking.
you can gain (or lose) a lot of time on the downhills so learn how to run downhill and train on long mid steep downhill runs – short fast steps, slight lean forward from the ankles. downhill is much harder on the quads than uphill, so once or twice a week for serious downhill training at most.

Trailbed – my guess it is pretty rugged, that's why I asked if you had seen it.
try and train on equally rugged terraine as much as you can to build up your stabilizing muscles.

The most bang for you buck is actual training on the course.
if at all possible train on the course itself once in a while.
all else being equal, familiarity is faster than nonfamiliarity.

[Peter Rodrigues]

Mike,

The guys above have said some really sound things. One thing that I would consider essential givenht yourrae isten months away would be some intermediate goals. They dont have to be races, but instead paces or efforts on similar type terrain. Personally I find that working toward paced efforts over shorter courses helps me to believe in my fitness as my main event gets closer.

Keep us updated of your progress.

Pete

[Nick Gatel]

Craig,

I didn't know you were coaching. Good for you. About that kid working to lower his 5K time. So many times I have seen the average or below average kids set a goal and they persist, work hard, attack it with tenacity and then finally hit it. Those performances often become the highlight of the year for everyone on the team. Encourage and work with him.

A couple of links you may find interesting:

http://www.tech-fall.com/2005CAtrackfield7.html

scroll down to the 1600 meter race. Acosta was disqualified because with 3/4 of a lap to go go, he knocked Joe of the track while Joe was leading the race. Joe got back on the track and finished 2nd. Joe had run the fastest qualifying heat the day before at 4:11.

2004 XC State Finals: http://www.sml1.com/recordtiming/cifxc2004/cifd2b.txt

Regarding apples and oranges. I agree. My interest in running has always been competitive; as a runner and coaching others. But nothing wrong with running for fun; even the elite have fun. And it is completely possible to make one's first race a big one. You did that. But for most people they need to set milestones along the way and achieve incremental personal wins as they progress. And no matter why someone runs, I always encourage that method. It is not necessarily the correct way, but more beginning runners will keep running with that method. Less likely to get discouraged or injured.

Mike,

That 20 mile race is close to a marathon. I would definitely set up a 6 day a week training schedule. For some ideas check out this article

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/143.shtml

Art provided some good information on the downhills, but I would try and stay upright, not lean. The short step is important, otherwise you will heel-strike which is killer on long downhills. You want a fore-strike. And as he said it is hard on the quads… not to mention the calves… it is even harder than he made it sound :(
If you remember from some of the minimalist running shoe threads, people said they were very sore at first because they started running with a front-strike. Well that will be compounded on downhills. Here is the trick on downhill training. Do a downhill training day, and then uphill the next day. You will be working opposing muscles and will almost give those sore muscles a day off when you run the opposite direction. And definitely train on the course if you can. Craig if you ever do the Boston marathon, I think it is net downhill so this would probably apply to that course.

George,

You might also want to look at the coolinrunning site mentioned above. I sure would encourage you to run some shorter races. Just getting used to the organization of a race and running with others will be helpful. As far as pacing, I have seen a lot of below average runners in the middle distances, they are fair at 10K and get better as the mileage goes up. Pretty rare to see someone who is good across the board unless you grew up in Kenya.

I sure am enjoying this thread. To the OP and Eugene, sorry we got off subject but you inspired a lot of people which is a good thing!!

[Diplomatic Mike]

If i could go back in time, i would have done all of my running off-road. My joints are pretty well beat, and i put that down to years of 90 mile weeks training, mostly on concrete and tarmac. Do yourself a favour, and keep on the grass. :)

[Eugene Smith]

@ Nick,

I'm enjoying this thread very much and listening in, there's some really good discussion going on. I always knew there were more endurance junkies in our midst.

Three years ago I ran an 18:12 my second time running a 5K race, having never done ANY structured speed work or tempo runs leading up. That's not a fast time by 5K runner standards, but I was happy with my finish time having only fed on a diet of 8 minute mile running up and down my local trails with occasional pick ups thrown in and getting in long runs on the weekend with a fair of climbing. I learned that I don't enjoy 5K's very much and haven't run one since, too much pain and a tremendous amount of structured training to get quick. Maybe I'm overdue for one? The only road running I've done this past year has been jeep roads, not sure I want to go back to pavement anytime soon. Craig nailed it on the head, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

There is something to be said about training on trails, the fitness gains are transferrable to road, much how the base fitness from a seasoned road runner can be tweaked for trail ultras pretty quickly. Elite runner Michael Wardian is a perfect example of this (he's a bit of a mutant, so maybe not a perfect example), he's a 2:20 marathoner who kills it at the 50 mile distance and beyond (Marathon de Sables, North Face 50, Western States)

I found some photos from my race, all credit to course photographer Jeff Edgar.

Somewhere around mile 32-32

Crossing the finish being greeted by Jim Breyfogle (an awesome 100 mile runner) the RD of Deadman Peaks 50.

I'm getting stoked for whatever is next.

[Art …]

Eugene … you look strong in those photos, even smiling during an ultra like you're having a good time !

[Art …]

Nick
in my suggestion to lean slightly while running downhill, I specifically said lean at the ankles. not my idea, a fairly standard ultra running concept.
I agree your mid section should try and stay straight.
but a slight lean at the ankles actually propells you downhill and insures that your footplants are not ahead of your center line. Leaning slightly is also more stable, helps keep you off your heals, and helps you react better on rough terraine.

from Ultra Running Magazine :
"When running downhill, lean forward slightly with your whole body so as to maintain the 90-degree alignment of your head-shoulders-hips-ankle with the ground."
Running Form Biomechanics
…

for those interested, UltraRunning Magazine Online has some good articles on training, nutrition, race logistics, etc.
UltraRunning Magazine Online

…

[t.darrah]

"not sure I want to go back to pavement anytime soon."

I enjoy both trail and road running equally. A preferred training run is to go out on the road very early (4:00 am) in the morning and just run in the dark. I can relax and focus on pushing myself rather then being concerned about foot placement and trail obstacles.

My younger years (Eugene's age) were spent training and racing nearly 100% on the road (except for the cross country season) and the transition to trail running has been a revelation. Having said that, road running will always have a special draw and joy for me.

[George Matthews]

I'm really focusing on my form when running. I believe this is what got me from zero to being able to run a few times a week without problems. Maybe I'm delusional in thinking my progress will continue to where I can finish a 50.

As far a competition, yes I just want to finish, but if I ever get to that level where I can do them, I would like to not be last in my age group : )

Thought this was interesting running article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/running-christopher-mcdougall.html?emc=eta1

The Once and Future Way to Run
By CHRISTOPHER McDOUGALL

[Mike M]

Gents- thanks for all the helpful tips/links! The Bridger Ridge run is ~ 4 hours (300 miles) away, by Montana standards not too awful far :) If I get in (it's a lottery) I'll definitely try to hit the trail at least a couple of times prior. Some of it's pretty decent trail, a fair amount of it is just scrambling across rock. There is definitely a long, steep drop at the end- so training for down hill makes great sense.

bridger ridge video

Mike

[Art …]

Mike
that looks like an amazing run, hope you get in.

do they give extra points for being struck by lightning ?

I see Nikki Kimball holds the womens record, she is an amazing athlete.

Here is some event history at Ultrasignup
Bridger at Ultrasignup

[Mike M]

I'm hoping for 0 points for lightning :)

there is a gal that holds the 60-69 yoa record (for both male and female), she finished the race this year w/ a broken wrist (about 1/2 way through)-pretty darn tough to say the least

[W I S N E R !]

There's nothing delusional about planning to finish a 50 mile George…do your work, play it smart (which it sounds like you're doing), and go get it.

Nice article you linked.

I like the point McDougall seems to make: that with proper form, we can pretty much run in anything. Seems to be the case for me. I've been through the spectrum; started with full-support, motion control shoes, got hurt a lot, went minimal and barefoot for about two years, learned a new running form, and the injuries have stopped. Now I'm HESITANTLY transitioning back into slightly more substantial shoes, seeking a bit more rock protection and padding for the soles. Seems to be going OK though, as I still run with a form I learned from going barefoot and still mix in plenty of running with minimal shoes to maintain form. I'm using the more substantial shoes for longer distances only. We'll see if this works.

Picked up a new pair today that I'm excited about (easy to be excited until you've logged 100 miles and some long runs in them though…). I plan on running the 2012 LA Marathon in March, hoping to PR in the process (want to run under 4 hours, ideally sub 3:50), so I'll be logging some longer road miles than usual. I've been running in the New Balance Minimus Road on pavement, asphalt, and track and really love them after ~350 miles. But I wanted something a touch more cushioned yet still relatively flat and light for longer road runs. Picked up the Mizuno Wave Musha 3 today. Ran a moderate (for me) 5K (26:16) with rolling hills this evening and really like them so far.

Keep the musings coming! Keep the questions rolling! I love talking running…It would be great if "Eugene Smith is a Beast" outlives the Carbon Flame War.

[Eugene Smith]

I share similar thoughts on footwear as Craig I believe, having slowly over the last few months transitioned back towards footwear with a bit more substantial cushion and upper support. The previous two years I ran in the New Balance MT100, MT101 and the NB Minimus MT10, all great shoes really, but lacking (for me) in the protection I needed for longer runs on my gnarly trails. All of those shoes struck a sweet spot for runs under 15 miles or so, beyond that my feet would eventually get fatigued and my form would suffer. Oddly enough, having switched to the Saucony Peregrine a few months ago, a 4mm drop shoe with midsole cushioning and a burly outsole, has been really good for me. I've had zero leg issues this year whereas in previous years running in flat near zero drop shoes I was battling with nagging IT band issues off and on. It could be the shoe, maybe not, I just know right now I'm running injury free and the only changes I've made is in my footwear.

[Art …]

and then there are Hokas.
I lucked out??? and got a pair at 55% off just to test.
I feel like a clown just walking in them and I'm afraid to take them on the trail. I might trip and kill myself.

[Mike M]

was going to start a new thread, but figured this would be a good as place as any :)

what does strategies do folks employ for cold/snow weather running?

I ran this morning about 32 F w/ a 10-15 mph breeze, it was just beginning to spit snow- cap 1 long sleeve shirt, ibex woolies boxers, R1 pants, Houdini windshirt, merino beanie, merino glove liners; little cool to begin w/ but once I got moving it was just about right- the windshirt did a good job of cutting the wind and the light snow just beaded up

[t.darrah]

Walking out the door early this morning for my run it was 18* with a light wind and threatening to snow (it was snowing as I finished). I used the following:

Top: Craft Zero Crew LS
Bottom: Patagonia Coolweather Tights
Head: Patagonia Alpine Beanie
Hands: Defeet Handskin gloves
Feet: Defeet Wooleator socks.

If colder or snowing at the start I would add a Wildthings epic pullover shell.

[Ryan Slack]

I’ll assist on the thread drift after saying “well done” to our resident ultra-distance runner(s). I have done all my winter running in Minnesota and Chicago. This is my general practice for colder runs, dependent on other factors (pace, snow/rain, wind):

>50F: t-shirt or jersey, split shorts.
35-50F: long underwear top (I like wool), light gloves; compression shorts, split shorts.
20-35F: long underwear top, short-sleeve or jersey, light gloves, stocking cap; tights, split shorts.
0-20F: long underwear top, short-sleeve shirt, cheap windbreaker, windproof gloves/mitts, stocking cap, neck gaiter; compression shorts, tights, split shorts.
<0F: add thin pants.

Shoes and socks generally don’t change, though I might put on longer socks to tuck into tights. I don’t think I’ve ever been too cold in this, though my runs are generally 30-90 minutes year-round. I think if I were doing 20+ mile runs in the winter I would do a couple loops to allow return to a central point for hot drinks/refueling.

Deceleration is much more difficult for you and for cars on snow/ice, so be careful.

[Author]

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