Oct 25, 2011 at 6:48 am #1281087
@benwoodLocale: flatlands of MO
Eugene probably wouldn't brag on himself about this, so I will.
Eugene ran the Deadman Peaks Ultra last weekend, a 50 miler (i think 54 in reality) across beautiful NM.
Out of 62 entrants only 33 finished and eugene was one of them.
good job buddy!Oct 25, 2011 at 7:04 am #1794734
@brendansLocale: Fruita CO
Great job man!Oct 25, 2011 at 7:09 am #1794736
Impressive ES! Congrats! Hope the recovery is going well! :O)Oct 25, 2011 at 7:45 am #1794742
Desert Beast.Oct 25, 2011 at 8:41 am #1794776
@thomdarrahLocale: Southern OregonOct 25, 2011 at 9:05 am #1794785
@hknewmanLocale: Western US
Congrats are in order. That area is a beautiful place for a hike … or trailrun.Oct 25, 2011 at 11:59 am #1794860
way to go Eugene!
encouraging to see some folks in my age group finishing :)Oct 25, 2011 at 1:28 pm #1794898
Gotta be tough to live in that Southern NM area!Oct 26, 2011 at 6:39 am #1795142
Right on Ben, thanks.
I'm still learning how to run these things, this year's race "strategy" backfired on me big time, my fitness was much better than last year but I went out WAYYYYY to fast in the first 18 miles of the race heading into the first aid station in 3rd position and succumbed to cramps off and on for the remainder of the run that I just couldn't shake. Running/powerhiking through cramps was how I made it back to the finish at the end of the day, but with a smile of course! Anyone looking to run ultra distances, embrace the long runs in your weekly training, not just big mileage weeks with frequent 'short' runs, it's all about getting in 25+ mile runs often and maybe even back to back at some point in the final weeks, not just an occasional long run like in marathon training. Anyways….
I learned my lesson….again.
The CDT, at least in that section, is a tough route, sure makes me respect thru hikers even more who choose that trail.
I seriously think ultrarunning is a sport that favors maturity, many of the top finishers were mature runners. My hero, NM resident Bobby Keogh is in his mid 60's and he runs all the ultras down here. His legs are like trunks and he can just keep going with a smile.Oct 26, 2011 at 7:23 am #1795156
fighting through cramps for 30+ miles sounds extremely grueling! probably the reason some of the folks who had dropped out I'd guess
good to know, I'm going to try and pick up my mileage- it would be extremely satisfying to finish a race of that magnitude
here's one you might consider if you're ever up for a visit to the Big Sky state :)
http://www.winddrinkers.org/BRR/BridgerRidge.html- it's shorter, but the elevation gains/losses are incredible (~ 17,000')Oct 26, 2011 at 12:24 pm #1795259
Great job Eugene.
yeah I know all about going out too fast, not a good idea but hard to avoid, just takes experience.
how regular were you with electrolytes and water intake ?
sometimes the going out too fast can help bring cramps on also.
and that 25 miler every other week, or every week for those in great shape, is key.Oct 26, 2011 at 4:26 pm #1795344
I stuck to a strict 1 capsule of Endurolyte every hour and was ingesting about 150-200 calories an hour in between the 4 aid stations. What I think brought on the cramps ( left quad and hamstrings) was that I didn't start taking in any supplementation until the mile 9 aid because it was so chilly and I was feeling good early on. Was it possible I was just behind the whole time and too little too late?
Agreed on the 25+ mile runs, I had several 70+ mile weeks, a few 20+ mile runs, and one 30 mile run 3 weeks out. It wasn't enough I don't think, at least for me to do well, for some that would be plenty…. im not a freak of nature. :-)Oct 26, 2011 at 5:03 pm #1795354
Congrats! I want to be you if I ever get a chance to grow up again.Oct 26, 2011 at 6:17 pm #1795368
@wufpackfnLocale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
I've only done regular marathons and can't imagine 50+ miles. Great job.
When using endurolytes I usually take one every 20 minutes throughout the race. In addition, I take 3 about a hour before the race. Once you get behind you really can't make up for the loss.
Your calories sound about right. Your body can't really utilize over 180-240 per hour (depending on body weight).
After two hours you need to consider protein. Otherwise your body starts working on muscle mass.
Hammer handbook is a great resource for understanding how the body works during endurance sports.
What a fantastic job and it's amazing you were able to fight through the issues. I think the "beast" title fits you well.
BradOct 26, 2011 at 7:02 pm #1795377
if it was dry and cold you may have gotten dehydrated without realizing it.
so maybe you did not take in enough fluids from the start because you were not thirsty enough to make you drink.
since electrolyte intake is often gaged by fluid intake, you may have not taken in enough electrolytes as a consequence.
Endurolytes deliberately have less sodium and potassium than other salt pills like S-caps. This is so theoretically you can manage your intake more precisely. but you need to know that if you really need electrolytes, taking 2 endurolytes at a time may help a bit more.
I would say your nutrition intake for the length of time you were running was not enough if it was only 150-200 calories per hour. did you also take food at the A/S?
you can get by on that calorie level for a marathon or maybe even a 6-7 hour 50k, but for longer runs you need more food.
I try and take 300 calories per hour for 50 milers and even more for 100 milers.
Tim Twietmeyer (25 time Western States finisher, 5 time winner) claimed to take in 300-400 calories per hour during his WS races.
I think 70 mile weeks is plenty for a 50 miler if it is quality mileage.
Some elite runners don't run much more than that.
there is a fine line between too little and to many electrolytes.
too many can cause its own problems.Oct 26, 2011 at 7:02 pm #1795378
Good insight, thank you. I may have just fallen into a deficit and wasn't able to recover, despite my attempts to come back. One thing I know is that I sweat heavily, doesn't matter if it's an easy effort recovery run or an extended run in the heat, I'm usually left with dried salt deposit on my hat or clothing. Do certain individuals require more electrolyte supplementation than others? Or can we typically only process a certain amount within an hour? Sorry for all the questions.
My father, also an endurance nut, has been telling me to grab the Hammer handbook for over a year now, he swears by it and it transformed how he's felt pre/during/post race for years now. I'll take his and your advice and read it over!
I used, only for the second time (bad race idea), Perpetuem Solids but I couldn't stand the chalky texture. I think I ended up getting half the chews stuck in my teeth. I'm sticking to Heed and Perpetuem powder in the future, which has worked in the past.Oct 26, 2011 at 7:18 pm #1795384
I don't know what your running system is.
I run with two 21 oz bottles (one in each hand).
one bottle is pure water.
other bottle has water plus 600 calories of Perpetuem (about 5 scoops, you could make it 800 calories if you wanted a thicker mix).
thats good for 2-2.5 hours, maybe 3-4 if I eat off the A/S tables.
I them refill them using baggies I carry with me or pick up at drop stations.
one swig every 15 minutes from the Perpetuem bottle is about 70 calories.
goes down easy.Oct 26, 2011 at 7:32 pm #1795393
That sounds like a good fueling system Art.Oct 26, 2011 at 8:12 pm #1795410
You described my long run system almost to a T (used in my training). Using a Perpetuem multi hour mixture in one bottle (21oz.) and plain water in the second bottle (26oz.) My mistake, amongst many, was that I switched up what I do in training on race day. I decided to use Perpetuem Solids to minimize the fuss factor with the powder form and cut down on bulk in my waist pack, what ended up happening was that I didn't eat the Solids (cause they're nasty) with any consistency and realized (too late!) that 3 whole chews only equaled out to about 100 calories (I only packed one tube for each 27 mile leg of the race). The powder is the way to go. I filled up with HEED at every station in one bottle, but it didn't seem to help with cramping issues.
Aid station food was good, helped with the hunger issues and satiation, but was your typical ultra fare.
Have you tried the pancake batter consistency with Perpetuem in a gel flask? How long is this good for?Oct 26, 2011 at 8:17 pm #1795415
Oh, and another thought on training: while he doesn't really run ultras (he's a ~2:35 marathoner and general road racing stud- look at his PRs), Jeff at The Logic of Long Distance (perhaps my favorite running blog), is the real deal, walking that fine line of elite amateurism. He just wrote an interesting piece on training, basically on shifting away from sheer volume (100MPW) and logging more quality. While the distances are different, I think much of the logic still applies. This post reminds me a little of what you're saying you suspect some of your troubles were: pouring on the weekly miles while perhaps neglecting more race-specific workouts- in your case, the LONG runs, and plenty of them.
Makes me wonder about the many 100 mile racers I've met/read about that are "only" logging 50-60 MPW (whereas you'd think their MPW would have to be more in the 100 range), but still running ultras comfortably…because they're getting in those 25-40+ mile runs on a very regular basis as opposed to weeks full of lots of 8s and 10s and doubles.Oct 26, 2011 at 8:23 pm #1795418
@ouzelLocale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
"Agreed on the 25+ mile runs, I had several 70+ mile weeks, a few 20+ mile runs, and one 30 mile run 3 weeks out. It wasn't enough I don't think, at least for me to do well, for some that would be plenty…. im not a freak of nature."
Back in the 80's, I ran a lot of middle distance races as well as several sub 3 hour marathons off a 70 miles/week training routine. 20+ mile runs once a week were standard. Then some guys in my running club suckered me into being the 6th man on their team for the American River 50 up in Sacramento. I figured no problem, since I could dust any of them at the above mentioned distances. I was in for a very humbling surprise. I managed to finish, in 9:13, but was a basket case and ended up in the hospital due to dehydration. Afterward, I asked a lot of ultra guys about what went wrong and how to train for such events. The things they told me that might be of use to you are: It's not so much a matter of training mileage as time on feet during your training runs. This gets you used to moving for a long time and also trains your body to not only take in food, water, and electrolytes, but to process them efficiently. I drank plenty, ate, and took in electrolytes, but it didn't do any good because I hadn't trained my body to process them during my faster paced 20 mile training runs. These guys would regularly go out for 6-8 hour runs, and longer, often twice/week, and it showed; they regularly ran in the 7-8 hour range. The one I knew best did the WS in 22 hours and I had a lot of conversations with him about the subject. I trained with him occasionally and paced him the last 25 miles of the WS, during which time we had a lot of time to talk about it. FWIW.
Meantime congratulations on your race. That looks like one heck of a gnarly course.Oct 27, 2011 at 5:21 am #1795500
Excellent thoughts on the matter, thanks for sharing your story! AR50 in 9:13? You were smoking fast.
You're absolutely right regarding time on the feet and 6-8 hour runs in training, best method in preparing to run all day is to run all day. I think I keep trying to fool myself that fitness and youth will make up for a lack of day long runs in training. I'm considering a few races in the spring so I'll likely keep the ball rolling after I recover and build off of the endurance I have now and the wisdom I'm gaining.Oct 27, 2011 at 6:18 am #1795512
@wufpackfnLocale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
I do think electrolyte replenish does depend on the individual to some degree. Training sessions are where you can dial this in.
Perpetuem solids would have been tough for me also. The liquid works much better for me, but I try to mix often and keep it cool. It can be a little difficult to get down when it is warm and hot outside.
I think Art has the ticket on his approach.
Good luck on your next race and keep us posted on how you do.
BradOct 27, 2011 at 6:51 am #1795521
I very briefly experimented with perpetuem in a gel flask (a very thick mix) but dropped the idea for a couple reasons.
1. it is not something you can do on the trail on the go. too tricky and messy, so you must mix it all ahead of time at home.
2. perpetuem supposedly has a limited shelf life once mixed, 4 hours or so at room temperature i think.
this idea was just too complicated to deal with.
perpetuem in a wide mouth bottle works much easier in all respects.Oct 27, 2011 at 7:15 am #1795527
@prodriguesLocale: New York
some really great insight to fueling. thanks.
Since reading about Luke Nelson's Wasatch 100 2nd place finish…(http://challengeofbalance.blogspot.com/2011/09/wasatch-100-2011-perfect-day.html), I've tried his Endurance First Slurry (scroll to the bottom of the post).
While it's not something that can be mixed en route, I do find it beneficial rather than trying to take solids/gels, which after a while just don't go down very well for me. Haven't tried it in a race yet, only in training.
here's the slurry mix:
EFS Slurry: In a 10oz flask mix 3 oz EFS liquid shot, 1/3 scoop EFS then top with water. For the very first and last flask I also added 1 scoop pre-race (a la holy hand grenade) Over the day I consumed about 11 of the 10oz flasks. Apart from the popsicles, peach, coke and a few cups of soup no other fuel was consumed. I carried 2 10 oz flasks at a time as well as 17 oz of plain water.
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