what do you want to see from AEG

Nice to see you focusing on SUL/XUL. I agree we need more attention focused here. SUL is like the race cars of the automotive world….the good new ideas from SUL filter down to the UL crew.

Ideas? One idea would be to add some pictures to your website so we can see what all these great products look like.

What the SUL scene really needs is:

1) More shelter options in the sub 1 lbs catagory (not just tarps, more stuff like the hexamid but different)
2) A sleeping bag/quilt that incorporates a reflective layer (like the NeoAir or New Balance Fugu jacket) to add warmth so you need less down. A hybrid down/reflective bag could be a huge break through.
3) A nice hat (ie. fleece) with a small light headlamp sewn on.

" 3) A nice hat (ie. fleece) with a small light headlamp sewn on. "

Will that go through the washing machine?

–B.G.–

Hmm….I guess it would need to unless it was somehow removable. It would be fine if they disconnected. It would just be nice to have my headlamp connect to my beanie so I could leave the headlamp strap at home. To give credit where due, this is Mike C!'s idea.

I think the one area sul packs are somewhat lacking is the absence of a frame- 3-4 trips generally aren't a problem, but as you get into longer trips (or trips in very arid areas where water loads increase) the weight starts to add up

carbon fiber, delrin, hdpe sheets w/ channels, I'm sure there are more- all might make suitable frames- removable of course for those shorter trips :)

I would like to see more well-integrated systems of gear. Put together a set of stuff that is designed from the outset to work well together, to make it simple for people newly interested in UL/SUL to get started.

I think for many people, the most overwhelming part of the UL experience is the learning curve needed to pull a pack together, and the dozens of pieces of specialized gear it seems like you need to get from lots of different vendors, all cottage, all with the extra costs, shipping fees, etc, that go with that. Even if some of that means that you source (or get shipping/shopping agreements with) from other cottage gear manufacturers. I'd love a one-stop shopping to get a checklist of recommended gear that I know will work well together. I think the REI-crowd proves that there are a lot of people who have money to spend on hiking/camping and would spend that money going UL/SUL if it were easier to get started.

Also, a super-poncho-tarp would be high on my list. None of the existing poncho tarps I know of are larger than ~5'x9', which is pretty intimidating for a new tarp camper — If you could develop a poncho tarp that intelligently folded/snapped the extra fabric, but spread out to be ~8'x10', you'd have a tarp that even a beginner could use in the field, and would ease the transition to SUL gear. It doesn't even have to be a rectangle. There's a video somewhere on youtube of the Equinox guy setting up an 8×10 tarp with four stakes and a single trekking pole, but it involves essentially wasting the corners. It might be possible to look at non-rectangular tarp formats that would work better as a poncho, but would also allow large protected areas for beginning tarp campers.

Another option would be to develop two poncho tarps that snap/zip/velcro together so that two people hiking together could easily use a pair of poncho tarps to create one larger shelter. Two 5×9 poncho tarps that suddenly became a 10×9 tarp would solve the problem with a lot of elegance and save a lot of weight, while still providing maximum protection.

I'd also like to see cheap ground cloths with bathtub-style edges. Sure, it's easy to do this yourself as a modification, but should also be really easy to do for people… 1" of bathtub around a groundsheet would make it far less likely for water to run or pool into your sleeping area, especially with the larger tarp above.

I want ultra-cheap SUL packs. All of us have reusable grocery bags we paid $0.99 for or got for free. Ikea sells giant blue bags for $0.69 that are lightweight and strong. Both of these types of bags are designed for repeat hauling of fairly heavy loads of groceries (certainly loads comparable/exceeding what we put in SUL packs), and these bags weigh only a few ounces. I can't see why someone hasn't created a reusable SUL pack using similar materials. Make it super simple, similar to the Zpacks Zero packs — one large main body and shoulder straps. I can't see any reason why these couldn't be mass produced and sold for $5. Sure, they wont last for years of abuse, but for hikers that are just starting to go UL, this gets them there for $100 less than the cheapest other alternatives. If they like it, they can always spend more later, and get the same thing made out of cuben.

Sure, it's not going to last for years, but it would give people an easy inroad into ultralite hiking, and I'd bet the $5 version that is just a big pocket with shoulder straps could be sold to supermarkets and other stores, especially in urban settings.

Sell a $20 deluxe version that has all additional features: Simple side pockets, a large mesh pocket on the back for drying gear or for overflow gear. Wide straps with light foam in them and a very simple waist belt and sternum strap… A lot of true SULs who are careful with their gear would get one of these and use it for a long time.

There is no reason simple packs need to be $100+. Nothing exists in the $5 backpack category, and I just don't understand why, when grocery bags for less than a dollar have basically the same function and materials — just need a little different configuration.

Anyway, lots more ideas, but those are at the top of my wish list.

always insightful… thanks for "adding" to the convo BG…lulz

> I want ultra-cheap SUL packs. All of us have reusable grocery bags we paid $0.99 for or got for free. Ikea sells giant blue bags for $0.69 that are lightweight and strong. Both of these types of bags are designed for repeat hauling of fairly heavy loads of groceries (certainly loads comparable/exceeding what we put in SUL packs), and these bags weigh only a few ounces. I can't see why someone hasn't created a reusable SUL pack using similar materials.

What a great idea!!! My IKEA bags will carry ANYTHING!

I may try this this weekend… Thanks!

Its slightly heavy for SUL but I would really like to see a fairly tough sub 1 lb. pack with a frame of some kind that could handle up to 30 pounds of gear. Something kind of like a MLD burn but with a frame.
This kind of pack would be great for thru-hikers who want to go light but they need the ability to occasionally carry lots of food or water. What I would have in mind woud be tall narrow pack with a U shaped frame of either aluminium or carbon fiber that attaches directly to the hipbelt.
I think a pack like this would be really cool but the market for it might be slow to develop and it might always be a niche pack since most SULs don't need a frame and other people may be okay with a few more ounces. For that reason I would be careful about investing too much time and money into the idea becuase it might not work or it might not sell well enough to justify your effort. On the other hand SUL pack with a frame and rugged enough for a through hike (i.e. not made of .33 oz cuban) could really put you on the map.

I tried to read all the replies so far, and I'm fairly new, but- any interest in a UL tarptent? I've seen myog examples (mini contrail-esque) at sub-1lb (Mr. Shortt!) and was wondering if there was anything out there for people who don't want 3 pieces (tarp/bivy/groundsheet) but want a real shelter. Not to mention everything is made for short people, all i want is a 90" floor! :P

Luke- I've seen quite a few threads where folks were inquiring about just such a pack, myself included- so yes probably a niche pack, but that niche might be broader than one thinks :)

Mike

I've wondered about a SUL pack "board", made of laminated carbon fiber or Kevlar with multiple slots for torso adjustment and others to attach Cuben bags. That would allow using different bag sizes and strapping on odd shaped equipment like tripods, CCF foam pads, BEAR CANS, etc. The old external frame packs were handy that way with a bag shorter than the frame and room for those odd bits.

The board could be very light, and make use of hollow tubes or channels to stiffen it. For 30-ish pound loads, it wouldn't need to be armor plating.

not SUL, but there are a couple of pack makers that have come up w/ some neat carbon pack frames for big game hunting

That is close to what I had in mind. Of course there is nothing new about pack boards, but using SUL principles, with straps and padding aimed at lither loads, the weight would come down fast.

I found a blog on that pack at http://kuiu.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/icon-carbon-fiber-frame/ . The bare frame is 13oz and think it could be much lighter than that if aimed at UL/SUL loads. It needs tubes or channels to stiffen it rather than the thick panel. It *is* pretty :)

Anyway, to stay on the thread, I would like to see a modular system based on a pack frame like this.

> That is close to what I had in mind. Of course there is nothing new about pack boards, but using SUL principles, with straps and padding aimed at lither loads, the weight would come down fast.

I found a blog on that pack at http://kuiu.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/icon-carbon-fiber-frame/ . The bare frame is 13oz and think it could be much lighter than that if aimed at UL/SUL loads. It needs tubes or channels to stiffen it rather than the thick panel. It *is* pretty :)

Anyway, to stay on the thread, I would like to see a modular system based on a pack frame like this.<

I would buy this in a New York Minute…

yeah- it definitely could be lightened, it's designed to handle loads of 70+ lbs (boned meat)- so dialing it back to loads of 30-ish lbs should yield significant weight savings :)

"2) A sleeping bag/quilt that incorporates a reflective layer (like the NeoAir or New Balance Fugu jacket) to add warmth so you need less down. A hybrid down/reflective bag could be a huge break through"

Do you think this would actually make that much of a difference? I am curious how much the reflective layer would make up for the loss of down. Augment it? Maybe slightly, I really wonder how much of a difference it makes. I know we are talking SUL here, but I never think to myself while I am in my bag, "You know, this entire experience would be so much nicer if I just had less down."

Less weight on backpack, sure. Slightly less shelter. No problem. But insulation seems to be the one thing I would want, only if the cost of heating yourself up via food to offset insulation loss is tremendous. Of course, I might be missing something here.

Dirk

I would love to produce a sul moduler carbon pack frame but unfortunately I don't have the r&d capabilities to do that I am however working on a 14-16 ounceish framed 35 liter pack

that'll do :)

"I am however working on a 14-16 ounceish framed 35 liter pack"

I hope you post here when it's ready.

I have a lot of things in proto stage some almost done some still on paper I will always post on bpl when I finish them

"Do you think this would actually make that much of a difference? I am curious how much the reflective layer would make up for the loss of down. Augment it? Maybe slightly, I really wonder how much of a difference it makes."

The goal would be to get the same desired level of insulation for less weight. That new NeoAir Xtherm has shown that it's possible to create insulation that's lighter than down. Themarest took the NeoAir from R 2.5 up to R 5 (I think) while just adding 1oz (or maybe 2oz) of weight via extra reflective layers and baffles. To boost the R-value up that high using down you would have had to use quite a bit more. The result is a full sized R-5 sleeping pad that weighs just 15oz….no down insulated pads can touch that.

Obviously using this technology directly in a sleeping bag wouldn't be very practical since a sleeping pad is fairly rigid, but it might be possible to create some sort of a hybrid design. Like a sleeping bag with a reflective layer or two, so that you need less down to get the same warmth.

There probably wouldn't be much weight to save with a 30-40F rated bag/quilt, as you'd only have about 5-9oz of down in there. But this might be a good idea to save weight in colder weather quilts…..making 3 season SUL and maybe one day even Winter SUL possible. In a 10-15F bag you might have 20oz of down, so some sort of hybrid that uses 8oz of down and a couple reflective layers might actually save quite a bit of weight. This is a similar idea to what Columbia is using in there new jackets. By printing reflective dots (yeah just little dots) inside the outer fabric layer of their insulating jackets, they claim they are 20% warmer. The weight would minimal to add this. I'm not sure how they did it, but New Balance created an insanely warm jacket (the Fugu) using not that much down and a reflective layer. It's 3x as insulating as my Montbell Alpine Light jacket and it's the same weight or even a bit lighter….pretty impressive stuff.

yep thats not a typo just finished the first prototype tyvec 1443 jacket code name verteXX . its 1/2 zip with a waterproof #3 zipper and hood but no pockets. I have a few changes to make mainly the sleeves are a little tight and the body a little baggy also the zipper comes up about 1.5 inches too high but overall im happy with it. mines a small im assuming a medium will weigh 3.5 ounces and a large around 4. i dont have exact specs on tyvec 1443 what i know is 1.1 ounce square yard its more durable then driducks not quite as durable as sil. it feels on par breath-ability wise with my 3 layer eVent shell. i will keep you guys updated on advances with the jacket.

Dan –

I appreciate your comments and explanation. I knew about the upcoming pad from Thermarest, being an owner of the NeoAir, a product still dear to my heart (and hips).

Assuming this technology is transferable to sleeping bags/quilts, I look forward to the rather large transformation it will have on sleep systems. I am particularly interested in your opinions because you live just a few hundred miles north, making your experiences with gear especially applicable.

Dirk

I don't know if you are going to get into the apparel business, but I found shopping for a rain jacket to be really frustrating. I wanted a hoodless, light rain jacket made out of a good waterproof-breathable material with large pit zips. (I overheat a lot.) I could not find this. I could not find anything close. I think it would be great to have a company do for rain jackets like these guys (http://beyondclothing.com/) did for fleece. Granted, I cannot fork out what they charge for fleece, but I forked out a lot for a rain jacket that did not fit my needs. I would've gladly forked out a bit more for a customized rain jacket. If you look at the variety of options out there, it's obvious that everyone has different preferences on their jacket.

If you made a rain jacket that was customizable, I think it'd be awesome. People send in their dimensions, how they like it to fit, what material they want it made out of, whether or not they want pit zips, pockets, hood (helmet compatibility or not), brim on hood, etc, with each option showing the weight penalty (or savings) and the associated price. I would've paid an extra 20% (or more depending on my mood) to get exactly what I wanted in a rain jacket.