What winter jacket needed when paired with nano puff

Last year in minnesota I wore merino base layer, light fleece, patagonia down sweater and marmot precip in those temps and was fine. Of course i was sitting by a fire some of the time. But adding a rain shell to any equation brings a lot of warmth.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=9378

This thread has an excellent graph that allows you to determine the clo needed at a given temperature depending on activity.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950

This one talks about determining the clo for your clothing. Hope that helps

See if you can get a New Balance Fugu. Set up a Google Alert and an eBay search with email notification. This jacket has exceptional clo per Richard Nisley.

This is what I did a while back and ended up getting a brand new one for around $100 on eBay.

MB alpine light (offered in jacket or parka) + nanopuff + base layer would not be a problem down to 0- the alpine light is over sized so it layers nicely w/o having to up size

Similar to the posters above, I use a merino baselayer, windshirt, nanopuff, and down sweater to temps below zero in Michigan winter.

I like this combo for versatility of layering, and because it lets me use my 3 season gear year round.

I like the pricing on the alpine light. For anyone has experience with either the jacket or parka, is the parka worth the extra 3 oz weight for the warmth of a hood, or would I be better off with the jacket? Thanks.

get the parka imo, the hood is really handy on that kind of insulating layer- during the day at stops, at camp and even as part of a sleep system

I would say get the parka if you sleep in a quilt or hoodless bag. I have found that I do not like a jacket with a hood when I sleep in a bag with a well designed hood as it doesn't tend to fit me the same. YMMV. I also like the versatility of using a balaclava and down beanie. I just purchased the Alpine Light jacket and I can't wait for the mercury to drop to test it out.

Thatq seems like a lot of insulation.

Personally I'd go with a down vest if anything. Otherwise your hardshell sleeves will make you look like the Michelien Man with both a Nano Puff and a light down jacket.

But it's not the looks that are the problem, it's that your overstuffed hardshell sleeves will restist movement and bind. Been there, done that.

Alpine Light Parka is worth the few ounces over the hoodless jacket.

You can still use a beanie and balaclava w/ the Parka version AND have the added versatility when you don't. At the temperatures you're talking about (0F) going with a full down parka makes more sense to me for a few indistinguishable ounces. 3oz. on a digital scale means nothing on your back in pack.

Another vote for the Alpine Light Parka. Without sizing up I can fit comfortably underneath:

– Wool baselayer
– Patagonia R1 Hoody
– Patagonia Houdini wind jacket or Montbell Rain Trekker Hardshell
– Patagonia Puffball vest or a Montbell Thermawrap jacket (believe comparable to a Nano Puff)

"But it's not the looks that are the problem, it's that your overstuffed hardshell sleeves will restist movement and bind. Been there, done that."

Throwing the puffy/belay jacket over the hardshell is done all the time in mountaineering – sounds like sizing of the belay jacket was the problem, not the layering concept itself.

I have to disagree on the warmth.

The Alpine Light has an lclo of 2.5. The Nano will be around .75. Typical base layers for Winter is around 1.

That'll get you to around 4.25 but you need an lclo of at least 5 to be comfortable sitting and talking at 0.

Wearing a shell on top of your down is asking for trouble if you start moving around much and bump up your MET, and ideally the Nano should be on top of the Alpine Light for moisture management.

I'd just leave the Nano behind and get a proper down parka for 0 temps although I'm not sure what would be good that low. I know the Rab Infinity is good to 14F sitting and talking so if you layer properly you could probably get it to 0. It's also lighter than the Alpine Light parka (my small Endurance version is 14.3 oz). The only downside is cost.

Mat, I think that there is no single answer to your question. It doesn't matter for my own body whether I usually run hot or run cold. Just sitting around looking at the stars can involve a huge variation in body heat output. If I just finish exercising, I can sprawl out on the snow in a short-sleeved shirt and shorts sometimes and still melt the snow around me. On the other hand, if my body is tired, or I'm hungry, or a number of other factors, it doesn't matter what I'm wearing, I'll feel cold unless I'm wrapped up in a warm sleeping bag.

Which brings me to my recommendation: for laying around looking at the stars, why bother with a specially big jacket when you could just walk around in a sleeping bag with holes for the legs? Feathered friends makes the Winter Wren, which is rated to 25*F, and I know that's not what you need, but if you like the concept, I'm sure you could get a custom bag maker to make a warmer one for you.

Having used this combo (or an r2 fleece in place of nanopuff) for the past 4 years, I consider it to be one of my "tried and true" winter strategies. I wouldn't have recommended it otherwise. I don't consider myself a particularly warm person (temperature-wise that is) but I do live in a fairly cold place so acclimation may play a role. There are many other factors like body fat and metabolism that may also play into whether this works for you.

Regardless, I agree with Chris that a designated winter parka may be warmer and lighter than this combo. I haven't gone this route because I like to be able to mix and match from my normal 3 season stuff and to shed layers incrementally based on activity level.

Nanopuff and down sweater hoody on an ice fishing trip last year. Lows of -11 F.

while I find clo values very handy for comparing garments, the #'s I see posted seem very conservative- that could be because my metabolism is high, could be I'm acclimated to a cold climate (I work outdoors year round) or could be that the numbers are just conservative :)

like Ike, I'm not suggesting a combo I haven't tried for myself, a light base layer, Nanopuff and Alpine Light parka takes me down to 0 and below just fine (making an assumption that your feet, lower body, hands and head are also adequately cared for)- maybe I'm just lucky and can simply subtract .75 clo :)

as I mentioned the Alpine Light is cut w/ room, so layering is not problematic

Will R wrote a nice article some time back where he incorporated a similar strategy in the winter- basically combining "lighter" insulating layers vs a one coat system- he found it more versatile as many winter days the temps can make some significant swings in temp- it can also be more versatile in that these may be layers you already own for 3 season and shoulder season use

I used to be able to sit around in the low teens with nothing but a Montbell Thermawrap jacket. At the time though, I was 170 lbs and 18ish percent bodyfat. Since losing 35 lbs and dropping to 6-7% bodyfat, I can't do that anymore. I can hike all day in snow in bike shorts, but as soon as I stop moving the cold comes on fast. These days I'd rather trust the numbers and be a bit conservative and safe.

I'm guessing body fat, metabolism, food consumed and a whole host of other variables all go into the equation- I would rather the clo recommendations were on the conservative side as well, just noting that for myself they are quite conservative

Yep, far too many variables to account for. Personal experience is the only way to know what will work for an individual, and not packing enough warmth can be fatal.

Also, in Ike's photo it looks like he's hiking in the combo, not sitting around camp chatting which is what the OP asked about. That alone makes a huge difference in what will keep someone warm.

think he's ice fishing- plenty of sitting around- at least where I go ice fishing :)

I have a nanopuff as well as the ultralight down hoody from Patagonia at 9 oz. This is a killer combo. My nano is hood-less and the ultralight has a hood. Wearing the two together you don't get the marshmallow man look and you stay quite toasty.

I also will use a blackrock down beanie in combo with the ultralight hoody when it gets colder.

This combo is also SUPER light and packable.

Yes, I know it costs a fortune (UNLESS you work sales), but this combo should last you years.

I am a patagucci fan so I am very biased, but my layering system includes:

Make sure to take advantage of Patagonia's web specials. I bought all of these reduced or used or with a 20% REI

1) Cap 1 SS (bought at patagonia.com 50% off sale $12) 5 oz.
2) R1 Hoody (bought at patagonia.com 50% off sale $75) 12 oz.
3) Houdini (bought at patagonia.com 50% off sale $60) 5 oz.
4) Nano puff no hood (bought on BPL forum used $60) 9 oz.
5) Ultralight Down Hoody (bought with 20% off REI sale $250) 9 oz.
6) Torrentshell Pullover (bought at patagonia.com 50% off sale $50) 10 oz.

Grand total of $507 for year round coverage for MANY years to come. With pack weight at 50 oz. for four season coverage. Obviously as the months change you can drop weight by not carrying all the loot.

$500 is a good amount of money to spend but total weight of 50 oz for all of those is quite good.

The Ultralight Down Hoody is extremely hard to find on sale, but it does happen. I had to use the REI coupon, but I LOVE the ultralight down hoody and couldn't recommend it more.

Hatty

I agree with Chris on this, and for similar reasons. With my slim build, low body fat and fast metabolism, I get cold pretty easy when I stop moving. I have used multiple insulating layers in the past, but they aren't weight efficient to me. I am migrating to one big puffy jacket, and I'm torn between the Feathered Friends Hooded Helios and the Rab Infinity. If I remember correctly, Richard Nisley has mentioned the FF as the warmest in it's weight class. The only thing that concerns me is the fit; I know FF can be a little quirky.

As far as customer service, the Rab can be purchased from Backcountry.com, and Feathered Friends is top shelf in terms of both product and service quality.

It doesn't make sense to get something huge to layer over or under your Nano. Two other choices:

1. R1 Hoody and a down/synthetic vest.

2. Ditch the Nano and buy something bigger/warmer. If you're concerned about weight, a down jacket made for colder weather probably weights less than a Nano, shell, and down jacket.

I have the Alpine Light parka from Montbell (it was a gift, I would have personally chosen something else) and I've sat around shooting the s*** during a backcountry ski trip with an merino, an R1, and the AL in temps down to 5 degrees. FWIW, I rarely get cold and I am all of 6', 155lbs.

As for the CLO chart…I wouldn't even look at that. Warmth depends on the person. And I don't mean height, weight, blah blah blah.

Height/weight don't translate well to body composition. Someone can be 6'3 and 250 lbs at 8% fat or 6'3 and 160 lbs at 20% fat. Fat is a great insulator where muscle will only help with warmth while moving.

The CLO charts are built around the same "average" male used to calculate the EN ratings for sleeping bags. They also assume you're well hydrated and fed.

Yep, plenty of assumptions….but there's currently no other way to fairly compare garments and sleep systems.