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My frustrating times with the Pacific Outdoor Equipment Peak AC

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Konrad . BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 1:19 am

As previously discussed, I had the opportunity to test drive the Pacific Outdoor Equipment Peak AC pad over 21 days on the John Muir Trail this past September. I was initially very excited about this pad–It was insulated, had a claimed r-value that was higher than my Neoair, as well as every other pad that I've comfortably slept on during 3-season camping in the past. When our pads arrived in the mail, we enjoyed the bonus of having both of them being lighter than the manufacturer's specs. My men's pad weighed only 10.8oz and my girlfriend's women's pad weighed 11.4oz.

However, almost immediately we began dealing with problems with both durability and warmth. I must preface this post by saying that my experiences are purely anecdotal, and hardly backed by science. If anything, I hope to give you an idea of my personal frustrations with the pad, and provide a warning of the potential horrible experience once MAY encounter when buying this pad. Perhaps your experiences with the pad greatly differ from my own, and you greatly enjoy the pad. I, however, through direct observation and comparison with other pads, personally find that 1) the Peak AC suffers from manufacturing defects that cause durability to suffer and 2) the pad is not properly rated with an R-value of 2.5-4.4

SETUP
I was pairing my men's Peak AC with a Golite Ultra 20, and my girlfriend was pairing her women's Peak AC with a custom smaller sized Nunatak Alpinist mummy bag (Same down fill weight of an alpinist, but scaled down to a sub-alpinist's dimensions). On numerous occasions in the past, we've comfortably used our quilts and sleeping bags down to the low 30's, when respectively paired with a neoair (r-value 2.5) and a older orange thermarest prolite (r-value 2.2) Needless to say, because of prior testing we were under the impression that the sleeping system and clothes we brought on our JMT hike were more than adequate for the occasional but expected 30 degree lows we were to encounter. The only things we changed from our usual 3-season setup were our sleeping pads. We opted for Peak AC's because of their higher R-values and lower weights over our regular pads.

DURABILITY:
Due to an extremely hectic summer, I didn't have the opportunity to properly test our pads in the outdoors before taking them along on the JMT. Amateur mistake…I know. When the pads first arrived in the mail, I merely opened them up, inspected them, and covered the bottoms with silicone strips for grip. We had both slept on Big Agnes Aircore pads in the past, and knew that these style pads worked well for us, so comfort was not an issue. I inflated the pads in my apartment and left them in an inflated state over a couple nights. When they seemed to hold air just fine, I packed them up in their original box, and forgot about them.

Fast forward a month and my girlfriend and I are in Yosemite's backpacker campground,getting ready to sleep and start our JMT hike the following morning. This was the first time the pads were actually used. Around 9pm my girlfriend tells me her pad feels a little flat. I assure here it's normal, and that the air inside the pad has since cooled down, thus the pad needs a bit of a boost. She re-inflates it as much as human-powered lungs will allow, and quickly falls back asleep. Around 3am I wake up to her fiddling with the pad. Annoyed, she whispers "My butt's on the ground." I agree to switch pads with her, as my own pad still felt firm and fine. I re-inflate her pad until it was extremely firm and ensure that the valve is both free from obstructions and is properly tightened. I wake up at 6am, with her pad again partially deflated underneath me. I think to myself, what a crappy way to start our trip. The pad was clearly shot, and we both agreed it wasn't worth the time or effort to locate and patch the leak…this was likely a manufacturing defect and not one caused by carelessness. We delay our JMT start waiting for the Yosemite Curry Village gear shop to open, where we picked up a Women's Thermarest prolite (16oz, R-value of 2.8)as a replacement. It was a Sunday, so the Yosemite Valley Post Office was closed. Due to the neurotic gram counting mindset that this website has indoctrinated into me, I found that the most frustrating part of the ordeal was no so much having to pay for another pad, but the fact that we had to carry this P.O.E. P.O.S dud another couple of days to Tuolumne Meadows before we could mail it back to our home for warranty/RMA claims on a later date. Ugh.

I had previously read on blogs that many others have faced unexplained leaks in their Peak AC's (e.g. http://markswalkingblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/further-issues-with-the-poe-peak-elite-ac-sleeping-mat/) Seems like a handful of TGO hikers had similar problems. I had hoped these were isolated events restricted to only the first batch of Peak AC's produced. However, the following thread alone speaks of many who are suffering from leaks due to what appears to be shoddy construction.(http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=53948) Through all my forum and blog reading, and Personal Messages with other hikers, I can think of about 10 cases of Peak AC's magically losing air. I'm generally really good about clearing campsites of debris, and being careful with UL gear. Furthermore, I've never suffered a hole in any of my other camping mats, including my Neoair (~ 30 nights of use) It appears to me that Pacific Outdoor Equipment either isn't properly sealing their pads during construction, or the material they've chose does not permit an airtight seal. It's noteworthy to mention that we suffered our leak the first night of our trip, when the inside of my tent was still 100% clean (no trail dirt, rocks, or other stuff that gets picked up as the days go by), and the pads had not seen any prior usage. Strangely, the durability issues seem to also be quite hit or miss. My girlfriend's pad died before seeing any use, yet my own men's peak AC held air the entire length of the trip. That's not to say that I was not extremely worried throughout the trip that my pad would also start leaking. Personally, I find the weight savings not worth the gamble, as I often fell asleep thinking that I was resting on a time bomb waiting to ruin my trip.

WARMTH/R-VALUE

When we swapped out my girlfriend's pad at Curry Village for a women's prolite, I was a bit reluctant because the 2.8 r-value on her replacement pad would have been lower overall when compared to the Peak AC. However, her pad suffering a failure and our subsequent replacement with a prolite turned out to be a hidden blessing. Why? Simply because I never remained warm for an entire night on my Peak AC. Her replacement pad saved me about halfway through our trip.

Our JMT hike started out with fairly mild temperatures that got progressively colder as we got closer to the end of Sept. When we started our trip, night time lows were consistently in the mid to low 40's. As the trip drew closer to its end, we found night time lows and mornings frequently being around freezing. From the very beginning, I felt that the pad was inadequate.

My layering system consisted of a fleece beanie, Icebreaker 200wt merino wool long johns (top and bottom), montbell dynamo windpants, BPL cocoon hooded insulated pullover, and a Marmot Essence rain jacket. Paired with a neoair and golite ultra20, this standard type setup has easily defeated nights in the high 30's – low 40's on my previous weekend pursuits. With the addition of a gossamer gear 1/8"th thinlight and down pants, I've gone as low as 20 degrees. More so, my dinners were consistently packed with 700+ calories, and tanked with fats.

Yet from the very beginning, I found myself waking up cold around 2-3am, struggling to fall back asleep. These nights were only around 45 degrees. For the first time in my backcountry experience, I could actually feel the coldness of the pad and ground underneath me, sucking away what precious little heat I had. Tired and frustrated, I cursed the fact that I was using a quilt. Yet, such blasphemy was unfounded as quilts had served me so well in all my prior trips. Surely they could not be the source of my suffering.

In reality, I had mistakenly bought into the so called "bio-mapped insulation" hype that was proving to be a joke. Yes, the torso section was warmer than my legs, but even then, I was still cold. Mind you, I even was wearing my BPL synthetic cocoon pullover. The coverage of the insulated section also proved to be problematic. Now, I'm not very tall, standing only at 5'9", but I found my hips/butt not covered by the bio-mapping. Some nights I slept with my hands under my butt to warmup that region, while other nights I slept with my pillow off the mat so that I could scoot my entire body upwards towards the insulated area. The warmest nights were when I literally curled up into a fetal ball. The R-value of the insulated area claims to be 4.4, yet I had never felt this cold with my neoair whose r-value is marketed merely 2.5. POE claims to use reflective radiant heat technology to boost the lower end of the r-value up to 2.5, yet I see no evidence of this. It's simply an airpad with insulation in the torso. There is no visible silver material, and no internal baffling to trap dead airspace. Last I checked, an uninsulated Big Agnes aircore of the same style only has a r-value of 1.0. How POE determined that their radiant heat technology (if any is used) could boost the uninsulated portion of the pad from 1.0 to 2.5 is beyond me.

In my experience, the pad would not warm up. You know that sensation when you leave your tent to take a pee (or roll over to use your pee bottle)and you return to a cold pad?It usually takes about 10 mins, but your pad re-warms up and all is well. However, with the Peak AC, the pad would never re-warm up. It was just cold cold dead air.

Now, I'm sure some are thinking that there is a flaw in my sleeping/clothing system or diet to explain my perceptions, or that I'm merely a cold sleeper. Hell, I began to think the same for the majority of my trip. However, halfway through the trip, I had simply had enough…the cold was interfering with my ability to rest and recover for the next day's mileage. I asked my girlfriend if she were willing to switch pads with me, so that I could try out her women's prolite to see if it would remedy the problem. We figured that her sleeping bag was overly-warm for the current conditions, and could offset any inadequacies my men's POE Peak AC put forth. She reluctantly agreed.

This is the part of the story where I tell you that everything ended happily ever after…because it did. The first night I used her pad, I wore only longjohns and was overheating. No fleece cap, no BPL cocoon hoody, no rain gear etc. The night was 40 degrees and I was toasty in my Golite Ultra 20. All prior expectations returned once again. This is also the night where I became extremely angry at Pacific Outdoor Equipment, yearning to return home to write a scathing review of how their crappy customer service supports even crappier products. I went from restless cold nights on a 2.5-4.4 r-value rated "insulated pad" to sleeping comfortably on a 2.8 value pad with more warmth to spare. The few times I got slightly chilly were on those nights were we woke up to frosted condensation on our tent fly, but that was expected. Meanwhile my girlfriend attested to feeling coldspots, even through her overkill sleeping bag. This was a feeling she had not previously experienced when she was sleeping on the prolite.

I can go on and on about how dislike this pad, the company, and how I'm already dreading the warranty process for the leaking women's peak ac (apparently another member was denied a replacement for their brand new but leaking Peak AC; the company instead choosing to repair the pad)but I think you get the picture. The pad looked great on paper, but proved to be a miserable experience for my girlfriend and I. While my men's pad held air, it was inadequate in warmth. I choose now to look at the pad as a very light 1-season pad, that will be reserved for the dead of summer where temps aren't expected to be drop below 50. I had sold my Neoair because I believed it to be redundant upon acquisition of the Peak AC. I am an idiot. I now wish I still had it. If you thought the Neoair's r-value was overstated, then you'll have an awesome time trying to stay warm on the Peak AC.

This experience has done one thing for me though…it's solidified my allegiance to thermarest and cascade designs. I look forward to the release of the NeoAir X-Therm and X-lite in 2012(http://www.thegearcaster.com/the_gearcaster/2011/07/therm-a-rest-neoair-gets-warmer-and-lighter.html) and will pick up a synmat UL7 in the meantime to hold me over for my fall trips.

I hope this is helpful to someone out there, but again, I'm curious to hear of other's experiences.

Heath Pitts BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 5:00 am

Konrad, this is good information. I originally bought the Peak Elite AC myself and I just didn't like the way it felt and I didn't think it would be warm at all. I returned it without use and bought the neoair large. Looks like I made the right decision!

Mike M BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 7:06 am

that's got to be frustrating when a person puts in the time up front to make what he/she thinks is a very informed decision, only to find out at the worst possible time that it wasn't :(

I'm sure your well aware of some of the other semi-recent posts dealing w/ POE, hopefully your return process is much smoother

and while the neoair hasn't completely trouble free (although as many as are out there and the number of cited problems- it's close), the customer service following an incident has been exemplary

let us know how the return process goes

Stephen Barber BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 7:16 am

I've used the POE Elite AC all summer, and my son has used the 2/3 length version, with absolutely no problems. Very comfortable and warm.

PostedOct 4, 2011 at 7:28 am

Stephen,
What temps have you used it down to? And with what bag/layering system? From Konrad's post, it sounds like the potential problems with the POE Elite AC (assuming it holds air) are unlikely to be evident until you get down into at least the 40s. Summer wouldn't likely reveal the problems he is writing about.

PostedOct 4, 2011 at 7:38 am

FWIW, my Neoair also arrived with a slow leak. I bought it online and didn't have time to exchange it or deal with their warranty before my trip, so I just patched it with krazy glue. I didn't test it outdoors, either. Just blew it up and let it sit overnight with some weight on it and the pad was half-deflated in the morning.

Other concerns aside, it's not like POE is the only pad manufacturer that has defects. With these delicate materials, I'm sure it happens with all manufacturers.

PostedOct 4, 2011 at 8:21 am

My only firsthand experience with POE has been with a pair of the Eco Thermo pads that my wife and I have used for cold weather camping the past few years. I've had no problems and have been impressed with their construction and pleased with their warmth. In temps below 20*, I've used them in conjunction with a Z-Rest on top, so I'm not sure how low they go with foam, but I've been warm and toasty down into the 20s on multiple occasions on the Eco Thermos with a 20* bag and a thin liner, wearing only a baselayer.

I'm sad to read that so many have had problems with the POE Peak AC pads, and I hope they get production problems ironed out.

James holden BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 8:38 am

thanks for sharing

the neo air's R value is understated if anything … going by the SOM report on it

ive personally used a single neo air down to 20F without any additional foam pads ….wasnt the prettiest, but it was livable for me

Bob Bankhead BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 9:01 am

FWIW, Big Agnes had a similar problem with their first lot of their Insulated Air Core pads – lots of leaks due to poor materials. To their credit, they replaced every one of them returned by unhappy customers, and then fixed the problem with the next batch.

Too bad POE doesn't appear to be interested in doing the same.

PostedOct 4, 2011 at 11:28 am

I have seen more negative reviews of this pad in the last six months than any other product in all my time on these forums.

Yikes. Good luck getting this sorted out Konrad.

whitenoise . BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 1:09 pm

My experience is the exact same as the original poster. I bought the POE Peak AC and was really excited because it only weighed 11 ounces instead of the stated 14 ounces. Took it up on its first trip, it was well above freezing, but within an hour of lying down on the pad I was getting cold spots on my shoulders and hip. Within an hour I was freezing and couldn't sleep. I tried adding air but it did no good. I ended up putting on all my clothes and just froze through the night.

Gave it a second shot the next weekend using a foam pad for backup, just in case. The pad deflated within an hour of lying on top of it. Needless to say, I was angry, but glad I brought the CCF pad.

I contacted customer support and it took them a week and a half upon receipt of the pad to get a replacement sent out, so a total turnaround of 2.5 weeks, which was a little frustrating. But overall the customer support was good and responsive.

I was told that the reason my pad was cold and deflated was due to a "manufacturing defect." I'm not sure what that means. It's painful sometimes to be on the bleeding edge when technology is still getting worked out.

In other news, I got a Peak Oyl Lite pad as a replacement and I'm pretty happy with it. I will never go back to an air pad. Tried it this weekend at just above freezing and was nice and warm! We'll see how well that holds up.

Stephen Barber BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 1:44 pm

"Stephen,
What temps have you used it down to? And with what bag/layering system? From Konrad's post, it sounds like the potential problems with the POE Elite AC (assuming it holds air) are unlikely to be evident until you get down into at least the 40s. Summer wouldn't likely reveal the problems he is writing about."

Lowest temp was freezing, 40s were common. Warmest was a couple nights in the 50s. About two 1/2 weeks total – one week long trip and several two and three day trips.

I used it inside an MLD bivy, under either a tarp or several MLD mids/tents.

When I got the two pads, I promptly blew both up and left them inflated for several weeks with no leakage.

Having posted this, I expect that my next trip will have a catastrophic failure!!!

PostedOct 4, 2011 at 1:44 pm

I had the problem of deflation immediately and constantly for two nights without puncture. I had to ship it home and I thanked my lucky stars I was near a gear shop before being in the backcountry another 11 nights. Terrible experience.

Jeffs Eleven BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 2:20 pm

woah you just changed your avatar while I logged in.

Dang Konrad Sounds like a hassle- but glad y'all figured it out for the rest of the trip.
Yeah- all this + the older posts have definitely scared me away from POE.

I am on the same page as eric- I've slept comfortably on snow and a 30 deg bag with baselayers on my Neo. No cold coming through at all. I was amazed. All the new Neos coming out are looking like CD is about to own the pad segment of the industry. (at least as far as big companies) I guess they really always have… BAIACs were it for a year or two till the dawn of the Neos.

I wonder what the POE guy will say about this one.
Konrad did it right. In depth- no 'choice words' or bad attitude- just experience and thoughts/ concerns.

edit: your old avatar is back im freakin out man

Konrad . BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Thanks for all the feedback! It's becoming quite clear that my experience with the durability of the pad is part of a general trend amongst those early adopters of this pad. I do understand that there is always a risk associated with purchasing the first generation of any product. Whether we are talking about Neoairs or Iphone 4's, there's always a gamble associated with being on the forefront of cutting edge technology. I do recall countless 1st generation Neoairs suffering from exploding internal baffles that resulted in unsightly and uncomfortable bulging.

Furthermore, I understand that products and companies must be permitted some a period of time to fix out all the bugs and kinks of their newly released product. As consumers, I feel that we understand and assume this risk anytime we try out a brand new and untested product. However, with this risk, I also assume that a company will take care of me in the event that their product does not meet the expectations they have set forth. I can live with a company that refines their products throughout time, thus resulting in a superior product, but they shouldn't shortchange their customers. Every account of neoair failures that I've read about resulted in Thermarest providing a brand new replacement. The neoair is now a tried and true product amongst us UL'ers.

I can only hope that Pacific Outdoor Equipment will do the same, and not attempt to patch a pad that is clearly defective due to workmanship. There is a difference between wear and tear and a product/design defect. Mine and many others alike clearly fall in the latter category.

Stephen, I'm curious to know if you and your son were using quilts or sleeping bags? Perhaps the warmth issues are isolated to quilt users. My girlfriend largely avoided the warmth issues, but I assumed this was due to the the insulation provided by her full mummy bag.

Jeff, haha thanks for the kind words. To be fair, I did throw in the words "Crappy" and "POS" a couple of times in the writeup, so it wasnt entirely free of choice words or bad attitude. It remains hard to be objective when your personal experience is tainted with anger. About the avatar…maybe refresh the thread? It should stay as a pic of me in a lime green shirt.

doug thomas BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Konrad, Sorry to hear about your troubles with the Peak Elite. I too spent quite a bit of time looking into pad and had narrowed it down to two, the POE, and the Mammut Light Pump. I was all set to pull the trigger and get the POE pad, but when I went to order it, nobody had it in stock or knew when they would get some in. I really liked the weight and R factors that POE claimed. I looks like all their specs were more fiction than fact. From the trouble you had, I'm glad that nobody had them. Pretty happy with the Mammut pad. It's a bit heavy, but for a 3 inch thick pad it's not too bad. I hope your customer service experience is better than the ones I've been hearing about.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 2:39 pm

Hi Konrad and all

It is worth noting one crucial difference between the two types of mats, as that is the key to many of the problems.
The POE mat is an air-core mat with some insulation inside one face.
The Therm-a-Rest Prolite is a foam core mat.

The air in a foam-core mat is trapped. It can't circulate. That means you can move around on it and it will stay pretty warm. (Yeah, I have some Prolites and they are good.)

The air in an air-core mat is free to circulate between the warm top surface and the cold bottom surface. The layer of insulation inside the top surface is meant to limit the circulation, but in many cases it is just too thin to do this well. Also, if you are a restless sleeper, you are going to 'pump' the air in the mat around. Clearly this is happening in your case.

Note that this does NOT excuse a leaking mat. This is a perennial problem for the smaller companies: getting the right fabric and the right manufacturing to avoid leaks. The larger companies have an distinct advantage here. Sad to say it, but that is also a reason to bias one's selection a bit.

Cheers

Stephen Barber BPL Member
PostedOct 4, 2011 at 3:18 pm

"Stephen, I'm curious to know if you and your son were using quilts or sleeping bags? Perhaps the warmth issues are isolated to quilt users."

Sleeping bags.

Honestly, the POE has been the most comfortable pad I've used, and without the annoying crinkle sound of the NeoAir.

Terri Wright BPL Member
PostedOct 7, 2011 at 8:20 pm

On another POE Peak AC thread, I posted that POE was opting to repair my pad vs. replace even though I had the exact same problem as Konrad — deflating pad on the first night of my JMT trip! I made the same mistake Konrad made by not testing my pad and was disappointed that POE was opting to repair.

But low and behold POE sent me a new pad! I'm glad they did, it renews my faith that this relatively small company in Bozeman Mt. is really trying to make a good product and trying to keep customers happy. I'm sure it's really, really hard to find the sweet spot of a good product at good price. Others may not agree, but I want them to succeed. We benefit if they do.

d k BPL Member
PostedOct 7, 2011 at 8:34 pm

How much did your POE pads weigh? I'm just wondering if the ones on the lighter end of their variable weight spectrum are the ones with the problems…

PostedOct 7, 2011 at 11:42 pm

I have an earlier model , same problem , but it worked ok at first, now it's a goner. I actually found 3 leaks and fixed them but there are still more i can't find. Cold in the single digits C .

Hiking Malto BPL Member
PostedOct 8, 2011 at 7:27 am

I took this on my PCT hike and fought with multiple holes the entire trip. The leaks were mostly in the baffle corners and it appears there was a defect in the heat sealing process. I should have just replaced the pad but I was stubborn and thought I could patch it. It's almost impossible to patch those corner areas. Anyway, if others have a leaking pad blow it up, sit on it and pour a bit of water of water in each corner. You may be surprised at what you find. I found 4 leaks the first time I did this.

PostedOct 9, 2011 at 8:21 am

Wow…this only makes me love my Neo more. Sorry to hear that you experienced these problems, but thanks for sharing them, and in a respectful way.

Like I said, I am glad that I went with my Neo, and like others have mentioned, I have used the Neo only down to around the mid 20's. Then I throw a 1'8" thinlight pad on top and it is good down into the teens. I am considering getting one of the All Seasons to use for really cold temps, but I like the versatility (not to mention the lighter weight) of using my regular Neo with the Thinlight pad.

Konrad . BPL Member
PostedNov 13, 2011 at 1:47 pm

I just wanted to give a quick followup to this thread. POE and Josh (customer service) were both very helpful with my RMA/Warranty process. The hardest part was making the initial contact. After a couple unanswered calls, a voicemail, and a quick email followup to that voicemail, Josh called me back and walked me through the RMA process. I gave him a very very high-level and broad description of the discussed events, and he instructed me to just send in the pad at my convenience. A few weeks later I received a brand new POE women's Peak AC. It's great that they didn't try to repair the defective one, opting instead to just mail me a new one. It didn't matter that I had mildly altered the defective pad by adding silicone stripes to the bottom. While I haven't tested the newly received pads for leaks, nor have I decided whether I'd be keeping the pad, I figured I'd give a quick update and give credit where credit is due. Thanks

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