How to identify Pertex Quantum?

[James Bart]

Will someone that recently ordered the windshirt throuh BackcountryOutlet.com confirm if the garmet tag on their jacket indicates down insulation or if their was anything indicating Quantum fabric construction? Also, can you breathe through the fabric. My hypothesis is that this "issue" may be exclusive to jackets from Campmor.

[paul johnson]

My Black Ion came from BCO, not Campmor.

As far as recent purchases go, this one is definitely money well wasted.

It too, like those Ion's others purchased from Campmor, has down hidden somewhere in it, according to the label , but i can't seem to locate any (i gotta' compliment Marmot on hiding that down so well). I think that i got ripped off – no down in my Ion!

I believe that Marmot is using very rare 0FP (zero fill-power) down. This is supposedly even rarer than Eider down if i'm not mistaken. The good news here is that even IF this down was collected before molting, a) it wasn't doing the birds any good anyways, and b) i don't think the collection process of only removing 0FP down from the bird was overly traumatic for them. It's good to know that Marmot has a conscience (rare for most large companies) when it comes to the down that they advertise as being used in their Ion.

The material that my Ion is made from seems to be totally unbreathable. I can neither inhale through it, or exhale through it. If i were to wrap it tightly around my face, i would suffocate.

A little later i will attempt two things (NO, not the suffocation test!!):

1) try to carry some water in it, and then squeeze the water filled Ion "bladder" to see if any squeezes through (it might be a nice triple use for an unbreathable Ion – windshirt, water carrier, and suicidal suffocation device; perhaps Marmot will begin to market it as such);

2) try breathing through my Montane Aero (Pertex Quantum fabric), and the top of a BMW Vapr Nano Bivy.

This Ion i have feels and looks markedly different than the PQ mat'l used on the top of the BMW Vapr Nano bivy. This stuff reminds me more of GoLite Wisp/Ether fabric.

I'm beginning to think that i received, the O.P. version of the Ion, either that or maybe i have my very first VB Shirt?

All is not dark and gloomy, however. On the up side, this fabric is so tightly knit and heavily coated (it seems to be coated, at any rate), that i'm pretty confident that none of that down that is mentioned on the Ion's label will leak out (any feathers might have some trouble too).

Sorry, i can't comment on the performance of the Ion, as the size M that i ordered, is simply TOO SMALL to fit on my jumbo dwarf frame. One look at me and NO ONE would guess that I'm really a size L cleverly disguised in a jumbo dwarf package! Well, i guess that i'd be an L or XL in the little people size range.

Fortunately, the size M fits my 102lb wife just fine, though some bust compression is necessary to complete the zipping operation. Fortunately, she's taller and thinner than i am, so at least i didn't have to go through the trouble of sending it back.

All that said, would one really want a windshirt that was easy to breathe through? Wouldn't the wind also go through it somewhat easily?

[Ken Bennett]

Just to follow up, I compared my new Ion jacket from Campmor to my wife's Ion jacket that we purchased over 2 years ago. The fabrics feel very different — the older jacket feels ligher, thinner, and sort of "sticky." (Can't really explain it other than that.) The new jacket feels like a thicker fabric, and much smoother. Odd.

I need to get out and hike in it and see how it works before I get all bent out of shape. I can always eBay the thing (breathless copy — 'last batch of Quantum Ion jackets' and all that).

[Ken Bennett]

Had a short hike over Wesser Bald on Saturday, with swirling clouds and unseasonably warm weather. Put my new Ion jacket on when I got to the top, then wore it for a couple of miles down the Wesser Creek trail, layered over a very light merino wool base layer. Note that this is *downhill* in cool weather, temps in the 50s (F). After a couple of miles, the jacket was soaked on the inside, with water beading up on the fabric.

I don't know if this is a fair test of the Ion jacket, but I was disappointed. I'm trying to decide between testing it in cooler weather and just sending it back to Campmor. I'd be happy to hear any suggestions.

–Ken B

[Brett .]

Following up on my earlier posts, I still believe my Marmot Ion is sil-nylon, but can not prove it definitively.
PJ, I did the tests you mentioned.. I have my own simple test for water resistance, I turn the jacket (or pants) inside out, tie off a sleeve, and fill it with water. The depth at which water leaks out can be correlated linearly to the pressure at which it becoms permeable. The Ion leaks at a few inches of pressure. But.. I didn't buy it as rain wear; I bought it as a "Pertex" wind jacket; which should have about 20% air permeability; enough to transport water vapor, but 80% resistant to wind.

Like Ken, I had condensation in the jacket, and no breathability.
I returned one Ion, and I'm keeping one a windjacket/vapor barrier. It can compress to the size of a deck of cards and fit in my back pocket.. But when I can tolerate a few more ounces, I will carry my TNF DIAD instead.. that jacket does it all; and has replaced a pile of other jackets. It is one of the gems in my collection. I even bought a spare, and one for a hiking friend.

[Michael Martin]

Hi All-

Most of the calendered, down-proof, woven nylons I've seen under 1.5oz/yd^2 (including microlight and quantum) are *very* hard to breathe through if you hold them up to your mouth because the surface area covered by your lips is so small.

To informally compare fabrics like these, I like to form a ring with my thumb and forefinger with one hand. Then with the index finger of the other hand, poke the fabric through the ring. This forms a cup of fabric with a greater surface area then just holding the fabric up to your lips. If you now seal your thumb/forefinger ring around your lips and blow into the cup, you can get a better feel for the air permeability of these relatively low permeability fabrics.

After you do this a few times (and, yes, I'm guilty of roaming through xxxx, blowing into all of the jackets there…), it's pretty easy to form a uniform-sized cup.

The difference between, say, Quantum and eVent, Goretex, or Silnylon is striking with this test. You can blow fairly freely into the Quantum, with considerable effort into the eVent, and not at all with Goretex or Silnylon. (BTW, EPIC rates between quantum and eVent here.)

I'd be curious to hear how you guys with the new Ion jackets fair with this test.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Brett .]

Michael, I use a similar test, [edit: Michael you are correct; upon further consideration the pressure is the same regardless of volume!] My Ion is essentially non-permeable; thus I believe it is silicon coated nylon.

[Michael Martin]

Brett writes:

>> (same pressure/less cloth = higher pressure/inch2)

Brett-

Ummm…

I'm afraid I've got to disagree with you there. Yes, the pressure is the same in both cases. But, pressure is force per unit area (e.g. pounds per square inch). Air permeability is given as flow per unit area at a given pressure. By increasing the area, we increase the flow, allowing detection of flow in relatively impermeable fabrics.

Nevertheless, I'm curious to see if others report similar findings to yours. Perhaps a batch of Ions were made with the wrong fabric. Or, maybe there are some counterfeit jackets out there.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Gene .]

PJ,et al, In the interest of this forum (and doing my thing as a new memeber here to contribute)I took it upon myself to get in the car this past weekend and drive the hour North up the GSPkwy to Campmor. Yes, on a SATURDAY, Yes, in NJ!

Ok, I have been a customer of Campmor's for over 25 years; and am often greeted by name when I pass through their golden arches. So forthwith I proceeded to find a buddy who works there to take me to their remaining ION stock. He knew just where they were, and we started reading the tags.

They have 4 mediums in orange, and 1 large in blue(PJ). Every single tag is the same as what you all have been saying here, 'down filled' etc. My take on this is that either they are counterfiet goods, probably not; or, my assumption is that the wrong tags were sewn onto a big batch of these and the retailers were offered them at a substantial discount from Marmot.

Ok, so I got to take advantage of their EXTRA 10% off everything in the store, including sale priced items, while I was there *GRIN*; but still, I drove 2 hours roundtrip in NJ traffic on a Saturday for the BPL Team!

[paul johnson]

I think that i speak for all of the BPL Forum participants when i say that our heartfelt thanks go out to you Gene for your brave actions which went above and beyond the call of duty.

[Michael Martin]

Hi Guys-

I'm meeting with Marmot on the 28th in Salt Lake City. If anyone with a suspect Ion would like to loan it to me, I'd be glad to ask Marmot about the fabric and/or tags in person.

PM me if you're interested.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Stuart Burke]

I have a Ion that I purchased last fall on sale from Campmor. I have noticed the lack of breathabiltiy of the fabric that other people have mentioned. I tried blowing air through the fabric like Mike suggested and it was much less permeable than the piece of event fabric I compared it to. I also put the Ion fabric over the end of a shower head to see how much water went through it compared to a piece of silnylon. Compared to the silnylon the Ion fabric let alot more water through so I do not believe the Ion is made of silnylon. I washed my Ion today to see if it would improve the breathablity of the fabric. While washing it I noticed two small patches where it appears that a thin coating is coming off of the fabric. I compared this to some older jackets I have with thick PU coatings that are flaking and they look quite similar except for the difference in the thickness of the coating. Has anyone else noticed a coating flaking off of their Ions? I feel that this coating is PU (given the poor air permeability but decent water permeability) but I do not have any other lightly coated PU garments (like the old wisp fabric) to comapre it to.

It is really a shame that the fabric is not more breathable because I really like the cut and features of this garment.

[Brett .]

Stuart, My experience with PU coatings peeling is that the coating turns opaque, and peels off like dead skin off chapped lips (sorry, its the only analogy I can think of right now). Usually after prolonged UV exposure.
I don't know what silicon looks like when it peels, if it does. Anyone else know? Anyway, another nail in the coffin for the newer Marmot Ions. It is a shame because a Pertex jacket with that cut and feature set would be great.

[Craig Shelley]

I bought two ions about a year ago from REI outlet. The tags say 100% nylon (goose down isn't listed). Quantum Pertex isn't listed. I did the LED comparison test with the Ion, a Montane Aero (with Pertex Quantum tags), and the BMW Bivy top. They all look similar. It is hard to blow through these but it is possible. I used a Golite Wisp for comparison. The material looks different with the LED test and I just couldn't blow through it at all.

My Men's Large Ion weighs 90grams, a little less than the medium men's that started this posting. XLarge men's weighs 95grams, about the same as the medium.

I think my Ion probably is Quantum but I do find this discussion interesting. I'm fairly certain the paper tags with the garment or the REI web site listed it as Quantum when I bought it but I don't have proof of that now.

Craig Shelley

[paul johnson]

Sorry, my "old-timers" has been acting up lately. I owe y'all a comparison test b/t the latest(???) and worstest(???) Marmot Ion windshirt made from…well, whatever seemingly totally unbreathable fabric it's made from, and the PQ fabric used on the BMW Vapr Nano bivy.

I cannot exhale through or inhale through the black Marmot Ion windshirt that I recently purchased from BCO.

It is quite easy to both inhale through and exhale through the lighter, more delicate PQ fabric on the BMW Vapr Nano bivy. Would this light and delicate PQ fabric be good for a windshirt? Probably not if you wanted it to stop strong wind, but i'm just guessing here as i really don't know how gentle to moderate inhaling and exhaling through this fabric compares to it trying to stop wind. Please note, i've only recently received the Nano (ordered last day of 20% off timeframe a few weeks ago) and haven't had a chance to use it yet – unless you count my "breathing" test.

So, is my (oh, i mean my wife's – see initial post in this thread on sizing) new Marmot Ion made of PQ? Don't know.

Is it breathable? Don't know; depends upon what someone means by breathable. Maybe to some amount of water vapor??? Definitely not to the hardest blowing and inhaling that I could manage.

[Gene .]

PJ, Then YOU know the kind of traffic I was in for 2 hours! It took me almost an hour just to go from Exit 163 to Exit 138! On the way home to my Exit 114….

Mike Martin…Ok, Masochist that I am, and now that NJ has had it's first snowfall this Winter 18Jan06; I'll get back in the car and drive to Campmor and buy one 'off the rack' and mail it to you FedEx on Tuesday 23Jan06…PM me your mailing addy at my a o l addy…capteugene11 if you want me to do this…Like I need an excuse to go to Campmor…$15k in 25 years kinda' puts me in a different league at Campmor than the average shopper there…but I had sailboats to gear out back in the day.

PJ, do you want me to buy the last 'large' one in Blue, in case it is Pertex for you? After Mike is through with it he could mail it to you.

Oh, I have my Pertex Quantum Montane Featherlight jacket/pants right here…fondling jacket…Those Ions did NOT feel like this, and I think they definitely had a PU coating if I recall on the insides. They did not look like the 'Aero' fabric PQ either as my red Montane has that in gray panels on the side.

That said, I was out in 30'f the other day taking the 2,000ft rdtrip stroll to the mailbox and wore my Montane over a Campmor Micro fleece button down shirt and felt NO wind chill! It's THE best piece of gear I own, with respect to expected performance….it OUT PERFORMED my expectations and will ALWAYS be in my pack, along with the pants. For trail hiking I can't see how they would get damaged, off trail any fabric can get snagged IMO.

[Michael Martin]

Gene writes:

>> Mike Martin…Ok, Masochist that I am, and now that NJ has had it's first snowfall this Winter 18Jan06; I'll get back in the car and drive to Campmor and buy one 'off the rack' and mail it to you FedEx on Tuesday 23Jan06

Hi Gene-

That's a *very* generous offer! But, Ken already was kind enough to send me his Ion to confront Marmot with. I'll report back when it arrives, as well as Marmot's response.

DISCLAIMER ** Nothing herein shall be construed in any way to inhibit the reader's ability, desire, or motivation to brave New Jersey January weather to obtain light weight backpacking apparel from Campmor. ** ;-)

[Gene .]

Heck no Mike, but now I have to go to think of another 'excuse' to go to Campmor!

Neither Rain, Sleet, nor car chasing dogs shall keep me from my appointed rounds in the aisles of Campmor to peruse their goods! ~(:?)>

As a matter of fact I printed out what BPL had to say about the Campmor/Equinox Poncho Tarp; and passed it along to Campmor higher ups at the CS counter who took great interest in it…enough that I think we will see them changing the design to incorporate BPL's recommendations. Now that's Customer Service!

[Ken Bennett]

Mike, the Ion is winging it's way westward as we speak. Open the package carefully — the bright orange color can blind you unless you take precautions. Just drop me a note when you get it.

Thanks,
–Ken

[paul johnson]

Gene, Kind offer, but i'll pass until i'm sure Marmot gets their act in gear. The Campmor ones, according to some other Posters, had the same problem as my BCO. However, thanks again, that's really a very kind offer. Take care, pj

[Paul in Texas]

For those who supsect the Campmor "pertex" Ion's are actually sil-coated nylon, I think you are essentially correct.

I finaly got around to taking some pictures yesterday (been traveling too much to do it sooner), and here are the results …

I started with the Ion:

If you look closely, you can make out gaps in the weave (similar to those that are visible in the photos Richard Nisley posted at the beginning of this discussion). What is also visible is a "varnish" over the entire surface. Therefore, I'm guessing that the fabric sil-coated Pertex!

I also have an old Marmot Chinook (the predecessor to the Ion; you can see it here), so I decided to take a picture if it also:

According to the Marmot website, the Chinook is made of "Meta P-120R" (what ever that means). While this windshirt does breathe, it is not great (heance my desire to get the pertex version). From this picture, there are no obvious "vent holes" in the weave, but when I look through the fabric at a strong light source, it is apparent that the weave is tighter in some spots, and looser in others. I'm guessing this is where the breathability is derived from.

Just for kicks, I also photographed the Ballistic Airlight nylon shell from my MontBell UL Down Vest:

I can't wait to hear what Mike Martin has to report after his meeting with Marmot!

Regards,
PLR

[Gene .]

Paul Rancuret, now those are some interesting veiws of fabric! What did you use to take the photos?

[EndoftheTrail]

Not that I know…

But my experience with Marmot specs are that they can be quite inaccurate (understated pack weight, overstated pack capacity) and I have read similarly about Marmot bags having overly-optimistic temp ratings.

Not to say that Marmot is wilfully dishonest necessarily, but given the "cavalier attitude" that Marmot has about the accuracy of its specs and marketing info., I would not be at all surprised if for whatever reason Marmot changed the fabric of its Ion windshirt in between batches and didn't take the effort to update the specs on its website, etc.

[James Watts]

> I have read similarly about Marmot bags having overly-optimistic temp ratings.

Really? Because most of what I have read puts Marmot in the (short) list of manufacturers that rate their bags at least realistically, and my experience sleeping in my Pinnacle (15F rating) at about 5-10 degrees F seem to confirm this, as I was comfortable all night below the bags stated rating. I don't consider myself a particularly warm sleeper, but YMMV.

ETA: I will agree that Marmot's website is substandard, at best.

[Michael Martin]

Hi Guys-

I showed Ken's Ion jacket to Marmot twice during the show. Initially, everyone was suspicious that it was a counterfeit and they were concerned that it was purchased through regular retail channels rather than an auction site with an overseas address.

But…

I met again with their product designer. He inspected the product code, the "down filled" tag, and fabric and said that it *appears* like a genuine Marmot Ion from the Spring '06 production run with Pertex Quantum fabric. He said that the down tag was just a simple mixup, and suspected that the Quantum had some "variability" during the time when Perseverance Mills was having financial troubles.

I'm not sure where this leaves those of you who have recently purchased jackets with the poor air permeability, but at least now you know the story from the source.

I can confirm that Ken's jacket has *much* lower air permeability than my older (and much loved) Ion.

Cheers,

-Mike

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