Why is a stove part of an “ultralight” system <3 days?

OP, its unfortunate you presented a good question in such an un-serious way.

My answers are several. Bear in mind that while I don't engage in the uncivilized activity that is running, I'm somewhat familiar with walking for many miles for consecutive days.

-Insofar as carbs are concerned, the cal/oz/$ ratio is best with dehydrated.
-Stoves/pots are light.
-Warm liquids raise core temp more efficiently than anything else.
-Insofar as performance limiters, on trail my feet get sore before my legs give out or I run out daylight. Taking a 20 minute break or two ends up being the best way to maximize mileage.
-Etc.

Eliade, I don't know if you are still following this thread, but I'm very curious about your diet. Back in the 70s, I was friends with a backpacker who seemed to do well with growing his own sprouts in his backpack and consuming some kind of seaweed powder he would mix with water. Currently, I'm a stove-using vegan, but am open to the idea of going stoveless.

I stopped bringing a stove several years ago. I find it disturbs people because most love hot meals but since I have the palate of a goat it's not necessary. However I generally wait until it starts to get dark to eat my evening meal, less hassle, no one seems to notice and my pack is lighter, each to their own.

I started eating celery and carrots for lunch and found it helped me have more get up and go after lunch. I also pack a few babybell peppers which are light and have more vitamin C than an orange and they also take the pain out of the body in the evening.

Unless u r melting snow … No one NEEDS a stove on a short trip

Whether going stoveless is lighter ill leave to the spreadsheet geeks … Just remember to count the weight of the fuel, plates, cutelery etc …

No stove definately saves time …

Just make sure that if yr one of those guys being critical of packs that weight a tad more or other convenience items … You arent being hypocritical yourself using a stove ;)

Dale's First Heresy of Hiking: Ultralight backpacking is a technique, not a religion.

I subscribe to the Ultralight Canon where and when it suits me. I try not to lose as grip on the concept of "recreation" while trying to get my kit lighter. I guess I'm old enough that I have less to prove and more to enjoy :) Some people are very dedicated to the game of pulling out all the stops and getting as light as possible, and then there is a whole range of folk who are somewhere between there and "lightweight." There is no right or wrong, although common sense should prevail on either end of the spectrum.

If you want to go 3 days with your menu, why not? There is definitely the concept of "hike your own hike." You will see a number of "no cook" gear lists posted over the years, with most of them pointed at overnights, which is pretty easy to do. I like to eat and it is part of my daily enjoyment of life. If I can get to a beautiful spot and have a nice meal too, so much the better.

I went entirely stoveless for the AT. I did so because it simplifies life on the trail and I realized that those Knorr sides, Idahoan potatoes, and dehydrated stuff really contain very little food value. In fact they are mostly carbohydrate. Carbs are great fuel for muscle but what my body really needs after sustained effort is Protein.
My no cook strategy involves no less than 65 grams of protein a day. By eating at least half of that or 30 grams of protein before bed each night I eliminated muscle cramping and increased recovery times and stamina.
This worked for me.. i am not suggesting anyone else do this.
The biggest hurdle I faced was the vehement and almost religious opposition from other hikers.
The would look at my tiny pack and begin asking questions and then get defensive about their own pack.
My stoveless strategy was the most contentious subject. My fellow hikers always insisted that i "must be suffering" by not cooking food. I alway let them think what they want. Personally i don't care what anyone else chooses to do or carry on the trail.
The odd thing is how, without me saying a word, people would immediately attack the strategy I find works for me.
This extends into the ultralight hiking style as well. Invariably i would be told: "well i like to enjoy my hikes so i would never chose to go as light as you".
Fine with me. I enjoy my hikes too. I never once told anyone to be like me or cast aspersions on their decisions of what to carry or their packweight.
When people ask me I will answer.
Anyways, if you choose to go stoveless be ready for a lot of uninvited flak for your choice.

A few thoughts:

>"Dried seaweeds and sea veg. weigh almost nothing. I imagine the heaviest are un-soaked sunflower seeds, which are a minor part of my ziploc."

Not sure what the OP means by "weigh almost nothing" and "heaviest." The nori in my cupboard contains 56 cal/oz. Sunflower seeds are ~165 cal/oz. And if the OP wants to carry part of his water in the form of sprouts, that seems a reasonable indulgence for the sake of fresh veggies, but it clearly isn't a weight savings.

>"One can eat a tube of peanut butter and run all day, no stove required."

Uh, how big is that tube of PB? 8 oz is more than I could choke down at a sitting, and that's still only 1400 cal. @ 175 cal/oz for PB. That's a pretty significant calorie deficit for hiking all day, let alone running.

>"Don't forum members jerk beef, smoke fish, dehydrate fruit, carry gorp, etc?"

Sure, but lean dried meat or fish is never going to be much above 100 cal./oz, if that. Dried fruit, even less. I like the taste of dried fruit and jerky, so I carry it anyway, even though it's a little "heavy" in terms of calorie density.

>"…perhaps there are a few guilty consciences here."

I doubt it. I've been reading the articles and forums here for a couple years, and it seems like plenty of BPL folks choose to go stoveless from time to time, or are curious about doing so. And I'd guess the majority here don't cook during the day (just breakfast and dinner), meaning half our calories (or more) already come from cold foods. That a person can go three days (or even much longer) without cooking is hardly a revelation.

In my experience, discussion of cook vs. no-cook on these forums is typically respectful, interesting, and fact-based. A pity the OP's "question" (and his follow-up posts) wasn't any of these. But I did laugh a little.

Eric, are stoves for yuppiess?

Matt,

I don't think anyone here is arguing against stoveless as an option. I go on many multi-day hikes without a stove, as do many others.

Although arguing that prepackaged "Knorr sides, Idahoan potatoes, and dehydrated stuff really contain very little food value" is really misleading. The lowest quality processed pre-prepacked foods that happen to be dehydrated are almost nil in nutritional value true, but you also seem to be lumping all dehydrated food into that boat.

The OP on the other hand mentioned "fresh veg and water" being sufficient, which is a far cry from "no cook" meals that have dense and sufficient nutrition.

You're obviously talking about a diet that is extremely reliant on protein powder, which is a dehydrated processed food source, so in that, you're contradicting your previous statement, but you're also talking about something immensely different from what the OP is suggesting. Which is "take some sprouts, some vague "fresh veg and water", and you'll be fine".

One of the issues at hand here I believe, is cultural, and not dogmatic per say, although I will concede that there is a stigma against going stoveless. The cultural concern I see, is that many of us here, myself included, are more concerned with optimal health for longterm sustainable hiking. Where as the OP may be talking about a 2-3 day trip, once every few months, where she doesn't care if she ends up in the territory of actually ending up doing more damage than good to her body.

Honestly, I could go on a 3 day trip with no food, and obviously I source water in area regardless. Is that healthy? Nope. I could also go on a 3 day trip without any gear and most likely be fine, but that's not minimalism, that's survivalism, or fanaticism.

Actually i never used protein powder.
My no-cook diet for 98 days was(mostly):
Flour Tortillas, Cheedar Cheese, Peanut Butter, Sunflower seeds, Nutella, Tuna Packets, Spam singles, Fritos corn chips, snickers bars, MetRX builders bars, Hanover Bagel chips, crystal lite and Ocean spray drink mixes, and Starbucks via coffee packets (mixed cold).
The cheddar cheese lasts many days, the limiting factor was the oil would seperate out making it messy. Never had it go bad.
I usually carried some fruit out of each resupply like apples or bananas.
I always drank as much milk as I could while at a resupply town. I also horked down yogurt at every opportunity.
As for whether my diet is healthy or not.. Well i made it from Amicalola Falls Georgia to Mt Katahdin Maine in less than 100 days without injury or illness and without cooking a single meal on trail.
My general rule for foods is that they have at least 2000 kcalories per pound. I make an exception for the Tortillas because i am a tortilla addict.
Interestingly I found on all three of my long distance hikes that when i buy my food in town it almost invariably works out to $10 per trail day. I stopped adding up the calories and simply used this rule of thumb and it works out fine.
Speaking of Processed foods.. The Whoopie Pie is the most awesome thing i have ever eaten! I don't think they allow them in California. Ditto the Grits made with Bacon Grease they serve in the South are outlawed here in the people's republic of CA. :)

Geez, the first couple of folks responding were pretty negative. I didn't think your question was phrased inappropriately. Why do they think you couldn't survive 3 days without cooking and not enjoy it? Some of the later people listed viable options. I usually bring a stove and cook dinner and tea, but I recognize that peanut butter sandwiches, nuts, and other snacks are reasonable and tasty.

In answer to your question…I like a warm meal in the evening (less so in summer) and some tea. In cold weather, it's really appreciated, so I chose to carry extra weight (stove, pot, pot cozy, spoon, firestarter, fuel). Certainly, those extras have gotten lighter over the years. Like everything we talk about here, it's a matter of choice…however, it takes some people to suggest previously "unheard of" practices before people try something different. Maybe it works for you, maybe not. Are you going to tell some of the long distance guys (Andy Skurka, Francis Tapon, John Muir) that they're doing it wrong???

A stove is a luxury for me, but one I prefer.

Tom

I forgo the stove most of the time and generally considered it a luxury, comfort. I didn't even take a stove to Patagonia and it was a might chilly there. I don't see why anyone would take offense to someone's opinion that it's indulgent. I'm sure I carry a couple items that others would perceive as unnecessary. Their perception wouldn't offend me though…

Anyway, I prefer smoked meats (salmon, mackerel etc), cheeses, flat bread, peanut butter in a bag, dried fruits & nuts, chocolate etc. I don't backpack to cook & clean/do dishes. I'd rather spend my leisure time other ways.

When the group agrees "we" should cook, fine. Otherwise, it's not my modus operandi.

Matt,

Fair enough, sorry to make that assumption and put it on you. ;) Definitely, no cook is and always has been an option, and I'm with you, I never leave home without cheese.

I will say this to some of the others: I see alot of people claiming that people are "taking offense" at the suggestion to go stoveless, yet I don't actually see anybody saying "I'm offended by this idea."

I think the only thing offensive period was the antagonistic nature of OP's first post, and the vagueness of the alternative to stove use.

Javan,

Eliade wrote…
"Trail runner's perspective here, so please don't take this as an insult, but unless you're out for 3+ days, why does "ultralight" include a stove, any stove?"

You wrote…
"I think the only thing offensive period was the antagonistic nature of OP's first post, and the vagueness of the alternative to stove use."

When was antagonistic ever considered BAD on BPL? I know the term "UL indulgence" was used, and I'm quite happy with my Caldera or Bushbuddy indulgence. I was glad to see your last response…

"Fair enough, sorry to make that assumption and put it on you. ;) Definitely, no cook is and always has been an option, and I'm with you, I never leave home without cheese."

That is one of the problems of having discussions like this on the web. Hard to hear the intonation of voices and expressions on faces. It's nice to hear what various folks do, and the advantages/disadvantages they get from that.
Tom

Tom,

You're very right, it's hard to tell what people really mean without the face to face, and that's a big component to the "art of internet communication". ;)

I think to a large degree, most of us have reached some rapport and understand each other.

The original post was left open to a lot of interpretation, and since we've got no history with the poster, we all took different things from it. I never thought there was any contention about the idea of going stoveless, but that the glaring detail concerned the diet being proffered in substitution.

As to Matt's experience with people giving him a hard time, it's pretty clear that it stems from the same "traditional" vs "minimal" debate that confounds most of us when we run into other pack carrying bi-pedal entities on the trail, whom seem similar, but are obviously, very different than many of us. ;)

Very interesting thread. I have to follow a mainly wheat free, sugar free, caffeine free,low GI, fairly hight protein diet diet at all times, so I am always interested in new food ideas. Calories are obviously very important, but there seems to me more to food than just that.

The last couple of trips I have been eating my oatmeal breakfast cold and not bothering to make a morning cup of herbal tea.

Most of us take a non cook lunch/snacks, so going totally non cook, in theory, would just mean making a few adjustments and eating this stuff all day, day after day, after day :) For many people the evening ritual of using a stove and eating a cooked meal is a big part of the experience of hiking. For many, myself included, a hot meal and drink can be a powerful psychological boost after a wet cold day, or many wet cold days in a row (here in NZ). Also as Dave said hot food and liquid does more effectively raise core body temp. Cold calories will also do this – not sure how much the difference would be.

I can definitely see myself doing a totally non cook trip, but not running for three days with just a bag of carrots and water bottle :).

Konrad … Yuppies only use jetboils ;)

I just find it ironic how some preach against a few oz extra weight in a piece of gear

Yet they use stoves themselves when u clearly dont need one …. You just want is … Unless theres snow to melt

Same goes for tents vs tarps, tp vs leaves, etc …

We wont even talk about group gear …. Now THATS defensive

At the end of the day everyone does what they want

I'd rather be labeled an earth hating waste monger and or Yuppie and use my cushy 2-ply TP than use leaves. Y-U-C-K………

You can all have the imaginary crown o' of King of Wankers and use them leaves ;-)

What!? You bring food with you when you're trail running or backpacking!? That's not ultralight. I can survive for three days on wild berries and pine needles…

What!? You wear clothing when you hike!? This guy I know hikes with just one wool sock…

What!? You carry gear when you hike. That's not super ultra light. You should hire a porter when you hike. Carrying your own gear is so nineteen-90s.

Actually in Peru we had multiple offers of free mules (even though they normally charge for them), because people felt so sorry for us carrying our own packs. They thought we were insane, stupid, or very poor. I'm still not 100% sure which.

Although, once we hit the major up and down section of the particular trail we were on, I understood why.

I consider a stove a luxury because I can usually cook over a campfire. I often skip cooking entirely though, and bring a selection of food wide enough to allow that flexibility. If temps are in the 50's or lower (F), I'll be much more likely to want hot food.

Javan – I'm glad you didn't fall for the old "free mule" trick. They give you the mule for free and then gouge you on the feed…. ;-)

It occurred to me that maybe the reason many of us bring stoves and cook hot foods is that it's not so much the "why arne't you as light as possible?" issue as it's the "why aren't you as fast as possible?"

If you are trying to run a trail for 3 days, you don't want a lot of stuff loading you down and for sure food you can easily nibble and digest is a better choice than something requiring a stove.

But if you are out walking for 3 days, a few ounces for a stove doesn't matter much and a heavy meal will be welcome at the end of the day. You'll be able to digest heavier foods better than someone who is running and you might feel hungrier, too.

Many ultralight hikers are out there aiming for speed like a runner, and those hikers usually do not bring stuff for cooking. They usually do it more like a trail run.

"What!? You bring food with you when you're trail running or backpacking!? That's not ultralight. I can survive for three days on wild berries and pine needles…"

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I've actually done this, as I'm sure others have, just for the challenge. Three days was the longest I ever cared to try.

3 days in Northern Michigan, eating just veggies (wild leeks, watercress, burdock root, fiddleheads, morels, cattails, spring beauty) and the occasional fish. A fun experience, but not conducive to high mileage days. I'm sure I wasn't meeting caloric requirements either, but interestingly did not feel hungry due to frequent snacking and the fullness factor.

3 days in subzero weather with no food. The ice augur and rod negated any benefit in terms of weight savings. 3 straight days of fish cured me of any desire to try this type of adventure ever again. It was so cold that any fish I caught froze instantly, but stored well thereafter.

In the end, backpacking is just a hobby for most of us, so there's no reason personal preference shouldn't be as good an answer as any. My preference, for convenience and enjoyment is to bring a small cooking system. My stove setup weighs as little as 1.5- 2.5 oz, and (as Dave C mentioned) I can save significant weight by bringing only dehydrated foods. One day's food for me is usually about 16-18 oz, with an average caloric density of 160 cal/oz. This would be hard to match with an uncooked diet. I can't stand energy bars, and would have to eat almost exclusively nuts and nut butter to get close. But even more importantly, there is nothing I enjoy more than a nice hot meal at the end of a long day of backpacking.

Minimalist cooking system I picked up from fastpacker Matt Kirk's blog. Not all runners eat uncooked food. 1.5 oz for the pot, and <0.5 oz per meal for fuel. I think the advantage of dehydrated food offsets the weight of this system. Most of the time though, for convenience, I just bring a 0.5 oz alky stove.

Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy it. That's what it's all about.

Reading this thread has me wondering about whether cooking or not cooking is actually lighter. I have often gone stoveless for short trips just for simplicity's sake. It's nice sometimes not to have to deal with the stove and the pot and whatnot – just pull out the foodbag, stick your hand in and dinner is ready! But I've always cooked dinner on longer trips, and breakfast as well in colder weather. But I realize I have never really compared cooked and non-cooked foods as to calories per ounce, which is what counts if you are looking to travel light. Has anyone else run the numbers on this?