M 50?

Just want to say Sam that I've probably got the biggest chip on my shoulder of anyone about immoral markup, excessive hype, and dishonest marketing associated with oh so many new products that hit the market in the MYOG scene and elsewhere, and I've taken a lot of crap for it myself, so I definitely am with you.

It's hard to not end up being eminently cynical about this stuff, especially once people start dropping the "free market" bomb like it's dogma.

Unfortunately, the proof is still in the pudding, so we've got to test it regardless. To me, the M50 pricing was outrageous(just my opinion, no offense intended to anyone), so I waited for others to test it, and while I didn't refuse to work with it, I left acquiring it up to potential customers if they were interested in it. I found it to be pretty interesting fabric however, and in all fairness, felt it was very strong for it's weight. Difficult to work with considering the DWR, which even though it felt like it should be insanely good, didn't live up to the waterproofness of the M90/Intrepid fabrics.

So my only point was just to say, there's no way to know how good a fabric is by the specs, or the hype, or the price, it simply is or isn't.

There's a new run of Intrepid Taffeta, that weighs slightly more than the last run, and is slippery also like M50, but seems to be the most waterproof DWR available if I'm correct that it's the sample R. Nisley tested that had huge HH (higher than some sil). The thing is, so much of what makes M90/Intrepid great, is not the DWR, or even the fibers composing it, but the insanely tight weave, which really shines on the taffeta versions.

The tight weave affects not only water and windproofness (greatly), but also durability, while the individual fibers may not be as strong as a 6,6 1.1oz nylon, the weave is nearly impervious to snagging, and much more abrasion resistant, which makes it functionally, much more durable. However, not all of the same fabric is equal. The gray ripstop, seems to be the lightest I've tested, but it's also slightly less tight, and thus, seems to be less resilient, although I've been using it on my quilts for the past year+ and haven't had any issues. The black seems to be the best of the RS, with the blue somewhere in between.

The old Taf had a better feel, and was slightly lighter, but the new stuff is tougher, and much more water resistant. In fact, it's pretty freaking insanely so.

Which btw, if anybody wants some, I'm sure Josh can help you. Which, regardless of his play asking what you guys would pay for a hypothetical fabric, I know he's firmly committed to offering things at a *fair* price, as opposed to a market price.

There was some discussion on a thread a few months ago about this also.
It raises a point originally made to me by Roger Caffin about some of these fabrics, a point that is also reflected in Dan's post above.
It is that what happens when the fabric reaches its supposed hydrostatic head, evidenced by a few drops, may not be as important as what happens after that.

Put another way, just because the fabric doesn't start to leak until the pressure reaches levels that will also penetrate many silnylons, doesn't mean it will hold a candle to silnylon in a storm. Going all the way back to the supposed wonders of ventile cloth, and much later, Epic Malibu, I've seen too many of these touted fabrics leak large amounts of water once they reach their breaking point.

OK, the DWR treated and other vapor permeable fabrics that bead water well have their uses, such as outers for sleeping gear and wind shirts that just need to shed water in a shelter or drizzle. But when looking for something for a shelter canopy or raingear, IMO it is unwise to put much stock in these materials.

Guess this goes back to the many threads about what waterproof really means; but if you get soaked in a situation where hypothermia can kill, you know what waterproof doesn't mean.

However, I will concede that some of the expensive materials may be more durable than those that have been around a while. As I said, they don't look it, but that proves nothing. I have some of the M90 from T-H, and some of the similar stuff from OWF. Both weigh a little more than .9 oz, but not much. Have no idea what's "intrepid," and what's not, but some simple tests might be worthwhile to see what holds up best. A high tech tent, pack or sleeping bag is a lot of work for me, so am OK with making reasonable investments of time to pick materials that will not fail me. But wading through piles of hype is not for me either, thanks.