Vlad writes >> Also, lets be realistic here. How often do backpackers ever let themselves become soaked to the pore? If it happens, either youve been on a river somewhere or an accident has occurred such as stepping off into a large stream or river. << Actually I have on several occasions, most notably during my PCT thru-hike while traversing around Glacier Peak in the North Cascades of Washington. After a long night of rain, I awoke to dreary morning of rain and fog. The first challenge of the day was a 2500 foot climb to the top of a ridge through an over grown avalanche shoot. Since it was late summer and all the plants were dying, they lay across the trail requiring me to literally swim my way through the vegetation. It wasn’t long before I was totally drenched to the core.
You should have been wearing wool, Ron.
By the time I topped the ridge into to the open, the rain had turned to snow and I entered a whiteout. The rest of that 25 mile day was spent hiking either through the snow on open ridges or through the rainy valley. I covered the 25 miles with one 10 minute break because stopping for any significant time would have meant setting up shelter and changing to dry clothes. Walking generates heat which kept me going.
What I wore on that occasion was a pair of nylon shorts with nylon rain pants (more for wind protection than to keep dry). On top I had a base layer of long sleeve silk tee shirt, Suplex nylon shirt and Frogg Toggs jacket (again for wind protection). While wool may have kept me slightly warmer it would have made no difference in the outcome of the hike. Once I arrived in camp, I setup my shelter, replace my wet clothes with dry ones and crawled into my down sleeping bag.
Wow…you are lucky to be alive. I would argue with you on one point though, wool would have kept you A LOT warmer than what you had on. Not “slightly warmer” than what you had on.
>> You are arguing against everything that’s ever been said about wool clothing. << From what I’ve read, no one’s arguing against wool clothes. If that’s your choice, it’s perfectly fine.
Wait a minute Ron, I have been reading a lot of stuff in UL literature that denigrates trusty old wool and hypes up goose down and synthetics. There is a strong argument, implied or otherwise, in UL circles, against wool. Because wool is heavier than down or synthetics.
What people have been saying is that with proper understanding, wool isn’t your only option. The knowledgeable hiker learns that not wearing wool isn’t a death sentence anymore than wearing cotton is.
In a cold, wet environment Ron, cotton clothing is a poor choice. There are certain fabrics which are simply better than others for specific environments. For cold wet…wool has always been…and always will be a prime contender.
Yeah, Ray Jardine this, Ray Jardine that. I dont care about Ray Jardine. I am going to read his book, yes. But only so I can learn and “talk the talk” in UL and SUL circles. Otherwise, I could care less about the guy.
I was doing long distance, lightweight backpacking long before anybody ever heard of Ray Jardine and his book.
The role of Backpacking Light to enlighten people that there are often many solutions to a given problem. Over the years, too much of traditional backpacking turned into a dogma of uniform and safe thought and practice.
Traditional backpacking served me well for many, many years Ron. Lightweight backpacking is a variation of traditional backpacking and it existed long before Ray Jardine, this website or you. UL and SUL is relatively new and thats why I am here. But I have a problem with recommending goose down clothing to a person going into a cold wet environment.
Maybe if you had been able to go to Philmont in the mid seventies as a youth and perhaps did the Kit Carson Trek, you would have learned about lightweight backpacking as far back as the mid seventies. The Kit Carson program was the predecessor program to the present Rayado Trek program at Philmont Scout Ranch. I believe on your website you said your first attempt on the AT failed at 700 miles and weight was a big factor on having to stop?
I did 400 miles is slightly less than six weeks at Philmont Scout Ranch when I was only 16 and that was at much higher altitude than anywhere on the AT. I was doing lightweight backpacking then and Id never heard of Ray Jardine or “UL.”
I wasnt wasted or trashed at the end either…I could have easily gone on for another 500 miles or so after a few days rest and a lot of food.
Even when Jardine wrote his tome about ultralight, he fell into the trap of my way or the highway train of thought. With new solutions to problems coming out on almost a daily basis, we are finally getting beyond the notion that there’s only one way of doing things.
More Ray Jardine…
Sometimes we’ll read other people solutions of how they solve a problem. We’ll try it out only to discover it doesn’t work for us. Still that doesn’t make it any less viable. I love it when I see a post of a new solution, even if it’s not my cup of tea. But I absolutely hate it when someone gets online and starts spouting fiats about what is or isn’t proper backcountry gear. None of us are Gods, fortunately the lawyers haven’t found these forums yet and I’m way too old to worry about what my folks think.
Dont worry about it Ron…if one of your “folks” sues you for some bs reason, you can always file the insanity plea.
A calm query into the rational behind why someone chose one solutions over another is perfectly fine and contributes to our overall understanding. However, demands that people conform to some prescribed set of beliefs is neither informative or appreciated.
Have you ever heard of the United States Constitution, Ron? Freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? I will post as I see fit here and elsewhere. If you dont like me saying “wool is the best for cold wet backpacking,” then block me or dont read my posts. I will proceed to be irrational if I see fit.
Actually, if you had read my posts closer, you would see what I am trying to get to. I am trying to make UL and possibly SUL work for specific types of wintertime backpacking. Even this Don Ladigen guy posts a disclaimer in his book “Lighten Up!” that UL is not generally recommended in winter or at high altitudes and if it is used for such, the person should be very confident in his gear and clothing and experienced.
I feel very confident about using a tarp in the winter, I feel very confident about using a goose down sleeping bag in the winter and I feel very confident about using a lightweight or ultralightweight backpack in the winter. I can reduce my total pack weight a lot this way.
However, I am very unconfident with taking goose down clothing on long distance backpacking trips in the winter, where here on the East coast we get cold rains, freezing rains, sleet and if it snows, usually its a wet snow. That is bad judgment. If it adds a little bit of weight, I DONT CARE!
On the other hand, I am very confident with bringing wool clothing on above said backpacking trips. You cant try to pound a round peg into a square hole.
I have no beef with you Ron.
Vlad
