Bias in writing

Vlad,

1. You might be interested in an article on the topic of clothing and sleep systems for sustained wet weather, written by BackpackingLight.com’s co-founder, Alan Dixon. I think it’s scheduled to be published in December or January here.

2. As well as a series of articles, with one in depth about gear, about our trek to the Arctic this June. You can read a primer of the gear we took here: Clothing: Artic 1000 Gear: Clothing Sleeping: Arctic 1000 Gear: Sleep Systems

3. You should also have a look at: Comfort and Moisture Transport in Lightweight Wool and Synthetic Base Layers.

4. And: Drying Characteristics of Select Lightweight Down and Synthetic Insulated Tops: Loft recovery and water weight gain measurements of select down and synthetic tops after a thorough soaking

5. And: 2005 High Loft Synthetic (Belay) Jackets REVIEW SUMMARY and GEAR GUIDE OVERVIEW

6. And: Lightweight Synthetic High Loft Insulating Jackets/Pullovers and Vests: REVIEW SUMMARY and GEAR GUIDE OVERVIEW

7. And: Clothing and Sleep Systems for Mountain Hiking

8. And: Thermoregulation: An Overview of Heat Loss Mechanisms and Practical Guidelines for Staying Warm with Lightweight Gear

These articles will give you a more balanced view of the biases of the BPL Staff.

PS: Nothing is warm when wet. Wet clothes suck. Down just sucks worse.

Vlad,
Do you see the irony in titling your post “bias in writing”?
We all have biases based on the filter of our past experience, including yours for wool and against down for example.

Since subscribing to the content on this site I have learned under what conditions natural and/or manmade materials can be best utilized, solely or in combination. A reduction in pack weight is only one benefit of this knowledge. I get more performance per dollar out of my gear now, make more educated purchases, even stink less with my merino clothing. (Im with you on the wool opinion!)

It is clear from your posts you have a lot to contribute to this site; I do hope you stick around and benefit from the other posters who also have your deep experience, but also a different point of view. We may all be biased, but not maliciously so.

>PS: Nothing is warm when wet. Wet clothes >suck. Down just sucks worse.

That is just not true.

Wool clothing will keep you warm when its wet. I mean soaked wet. If you step off into a stream and get soaked while wearing wool long underwear as a base layer, wool pants and a wool shirt as a second layer, wearing wool ragg socks on your feet and a wool hat on your head…and you get up out of the stream and get back on the trail or head off to a nearby basecamp…the wool clothing is going to keep you a lot warmer than if you had been wearing cotton or any synthetics, much less any type of goose down.

Anybody who knows anything about this stuff knows wool is the ticket if you are serious about staying warm in cold, wet climates. You can do studies from now to doomsday that say otherwise, but wool is the best for cold, damp and wet environments.

It also cuts wind, which synthetic fleece doesnt do.

The only thing about wool, is that its heavier than synthetics or dry down. It is a shame to see an entire generation of outdoorsman and backpackers not get to utilize high quality wool clothing because outdoor companies want to push synthetic fabrics and goose down. And because whiners say its “itchy.”

Some company should bring back coarse, 100% wool shirts and pants. Its the best when all is said and done.

Vlad

>Vlad,
>Do you see the irony in titling your post >”bias in writing”?

Sure! I totally and completely 100% admit I am biased on certain subjects. This being one of them. I dont have any money to make off of this issue but I am biased and my posts reflect my biases.

The difference is that I can publically admit that I am heavily biased. Most others cannot do that.

>We all have biases based on the filter of >our past experience, including yours for >wool and against down for example.

Im not against down per se, just in certain specific situations and climates. I think down is great for certain areas of the world, particularly for sleeping bags. I have used goose down sleeping bags during east coast backpacking trips and it isnt hard to keep them dry if you are well trained and disciplined.

The problem is, a lot of people arent disciplined and are not well trained.

I just think its a travesty that someone would post an article telling someone to use goose down clothing when the poster has indicated they are going to a very cold, wet climate. Its stupid, to be honest. It reflects bias and lack of ability to tailor the gear and clothing to the particular situation.

But, getting back to me. Yeah…Im extremely biased. Totally admit it.

Vlad

Vlad, glad we can agree it is ok to be biased and admit it (I am too, towards Montbell gear for example). Untill a year ago the only down I had used was in my military issue intermediate sleeping bag. The thing was the size of a pony-keg and weighed a ton. That combined with the endless warnings of freezing to death in a soaked bag led me to avoid down as a civilian hiker. But now I carry a down bag in a waterproof bag, and only open it in my water(resistant?) tent. And my down jacket has a DWR coating which gives me enough time to throw a shell on before it gets wet. Even so, I would carry primarily synthetic if my life depended on it. For that I chose Snugpaks; are you familiar with them? They are popular with the military and I sure wish I had one instead of that down bag I mentioned.

As for wool; I prefer it over capilene for winter use; and my year round sock combo is a 5-toe wool liner and REI lightweight merino hikers. Is there any wool wear in particular you highly recommend?

Brett, a source please for that 5-toe wool liner. I would really like to try a good pair of toed merino wool liners.

Currently, i use Smartwool liners (no individual toes) – alone, in multi-pairs layers, or combined with Smartwool hiking socks in colder weather – all inside of usually, trail runners, or rarely, if conditions demand it, some 28oz to 32oz per pair (in my miniscule size) light hikers.

I’ve tried P’Down socks (sold on this website) sandwiched b/t two layers of Smartwool liners. Extends the life of the P’Down socks, which are quite warm, but don’t handle abrasion well at all, but still shorter lived than the liners and Smartwool hiking socks.

Many thanks in advance for your reply.
pj

Vlad,

three things:

1) i notice that you don’t have the “badge of honor” (the red ‘M’) next to your name on your posts. The red ‘M’ signifies that a person is a “Premium Member” of the BPL.com community.

2) i haven’t checked, but it’s possible that some of the links that DrJ provided may be premium content and so you wouldn’t be able to view and read the fine articles. Again, i haven’t taken the time to verify whether this is true or not in even one of the links, so i’m just speaking off the top of my head, but have seen this particular scenario happen before, so am assuming that it might be the case here.

3) this brings me to my point. if you feel that you would like and really make use (which i truly believe in your case you probably will make great use of it) of a BPL Premium Membership, i would like to purchase one for you.

If you are interested in this “no strings attached offer” (well, since i’m so tight and cheap and don’t like to waste money, really there is one string attached, viz. you give me your word [one ex-military guy to another – your honor is at stake here] that you have both the time and inclination to really make use of the Premium Membership and read the articles with an open mind , i will be very happy to contact BPL via their support Forums (or DrJ if he reads this Post can post back or PM me) to find out how i can pay and have them apply it to your current non-premium membership.

You seem like a decent guy (though a bit opinionated – i guess it takes one to know one!) with a real interest in backpacking, so i don’t think i’m taking much of a risk here that it will turn out that i wasted my time and resources in this instance.

Oh,…plus you get discounts on gear, like tiny lightweight folding Titanium Esbit stoves, at the BPL on-line “store” – i know from your other Posts (haven’t missed reading one yet) that this is of interest to you.

So, whada’ya say? Let me know.

sincerely,
pj

EDIT:
Vlad, it just occurred to me that if you don’t see this Post soon, i may be unable to reply to you or touch base with BPL regarding my offer until later this coming Sunday, due to some holiday plans. Please don’t take my lack of immediate response as a “re-consideration” or a “reneg”. I’ll check back as often as i can over the next few days – which won’t be very often and some of the next few days won’t be at all if all plans come off as planned. Have a great holiday yourself. take care, pj

PJ, Brett is probably using the Injinji Tetrasock.

http://injinji.com/tetratsok/outdoor.htm

Thanks John, i’ll check out your link after posting this. take care,pj

p.s.
cool animated GIF avatar you have there. very creative.

As a BPL staffer I’ll chime in with a few words.

Do BPL staffers have biases – sure. Do we try to manage those biases when we review products or provide recommendations – yes.

There is quite a diversity of opinions and styles among the staff, including several who favor wool over synthetics in many conditions. We have healthy and vigorous debate on these types of topics all the time.

I will say this, I have never been approached by anyone at BPL to change my opinion or to write a favorable review on any product. If anything, we are always reminded to be more critical, more edgy.

As far as west coast bias is concerned, it is true that most BPL staffers live in the western US. We do have some from outside the US, and Alan Dixon, our product review director, lives in Washington, DC. But we travel quite a bit, and I think our range of testing conditions has been fairly diverse. And I expect that our diversity of test conditions and locations will continue to grow. I for one, am hoping to get out to the east coast for some hiking in 2007.

PJ, under that gruff Viking exterior, you are just a sweet, sweet soul. And sweetness like that just makes me want to puke. (No, cancel that, that’s just my sick, sick mind burping again. Ignore that remark.) Serioulsly, PJ, your generosity and good-heartedness just make me want to give you a big hug, and a long, long kiss, (No, cancel that, that’s an even sicker compartment of my deranged mind. Just pretend I never said anything.)

Robert,

the way your post started out, i was in stitches, beside myself with laughter (i laugh silently, with only gasps of breath and forceful exhalations punctuating the silence, accompanied by paroxyms of spasms shaking my upper body, and then periodically snort like George Costanza – just to give you an idea of my current condition – my wife still, after all these years laughs AT me when i’m laughing)

now where was i…oh yes…i started out laughing, but then got “grossed out” (i think the young ‘uns still use that expression???). don’t equate “grossed out” with offended – i generally get vivid mental images of what i read, hence the “grossed out” part.

honestly, i think you might be more grossed out hugging a short, hairy, smelly, old geezer like myself.

as far as the last part, what do you think my avatar is carrying a battle-axe for, if not for occasions like you describe?!!! there, you’ve been forewarned, my obligation to your safety is ended. proceed at your own risk, my friend.

Have you ever read a review of anything that was written by a totally unbiased reviewer? I am OK with a reviewer having his or her biases assuming they try and keep them to a minimum. I find it hard to believe any “good” review from someone who doesn’t have “bad” reviews of products as well. I feel that BPL does some of the most subjective reviews in the industry. You should also note that they refrain from reviewing any of the BPL products even though it would be easy for them to slap together a favorable review. They leave the reviews of their products to word of mouth from the end users.

I have found some publications tend to only had out praise in their reviews probably due to not offending the company who’s product is reviewed since often, that company is also an advertiser (of potential advertiser) in the publication. Publications sometimes must tread that thin line, but that most often results in their loss of credibility. For Example: I subscribe to Sound and Vision magazine. While I enjoy the reviews and think they are helpful in showing the positive in new products on the market, it has been years since I have seen them give any product a truly negative review. Therefore, I take their praise of products with a grain of salt.

It would be nice to have some reviewers on the east coast, but the PNW is just as wet as many areas of the Appalachians. Overall, I feel that BPL is one of the most unbiased reviewers of backpacking gear available. I also find BackpackGearTest.org to be good amateur reviews. Unlike most “reader reviews” (not just here btw) who tend to love the product or bash it because of a bad experience (nobody bothers to review a piece of gear they feel is just average) the reviewers at Backpack Gear Test do not get to pick the products they review and other than getting to keep the gear when they are done, are totally uncompensated.

While all of us have our biases including the writers here at BPL and at every other gear, automotive, or electronics (etc…) publication have their biases, I still feel that the BPL staff turns out some of the best reviews and articles in the industry. I am not SUL like some of the staff (21lb pack weight), but I definitely feel that I have gotten my moneys worth.

Bravo Brad. Excellent words. Keen insights. Exemplary presentation. I’ll add my “Amen” to your words.

BTW, good point on the PNW vs. the NE and wider AT area. PNW gets more overall rain, and has more rainy days (up to 180 per yr in some places, i understand, compared to 80-120 for So. CT), but, and this is NOT AT ALL to meant to diminish in the least your fine and correct observation, ours often comes down heavier for most or all of 2-5 days. I only mention this to bring to light a difference for anyone who is interested. It is NOT meant to correct in the least your astute observation. Even with this heavy NE rain though, there has probably been only one year (a few yrs ago) that we topped Olympic Nat’l Park (according to our local TV Meteorologists) – Olympic had a relatively “dry” year too i understand. We had 120 rainy days and totalled over well over 100″ of rain that year (i’m now forgetting the precise number of inches) and many of those with all day moderate to heavy rain (we often get 2″-4″ of PEAK rainfall per hour which can last for a couple of hours and still come down pretty heavy, but lighter on each side of “the peak” rate for 24+ hrs). On the AT, i understand, that year is widely known as the wettest (and muddiest) year in recent history.

Thanks for posting such an even-handed set of observations.

>> Wool clothing will keep you warm when its wet. I mean soaked wet.

If you are wearing clothing that is soaking wet, the rate of body heat loss due to CONDUCTION is so fast that the type of clothing you are wearing is immaterial, because WATER controls the conduction rate.

If you get soaking wet, WRING out your clothes so that water plays less of a role.

Once water content of clothing continues to decrease, entrapped air in fiber interstices now controls the resistance to heat loss.

Wring out cotton and you do not have this luxury because the interstices have collapsed due to a lack of fiber resiliency (e.g., a lack of “springiness”) and you don’t recover your entrapped air.

Wring out a synthetic and you recover your entrapped air, but there is still much water in the interstices because the water cannot ABsorb INTO the fiber, it sits at the surface (i.e., ADsorption ONTO the fiber surface). Result: evaporative cooling is dramatic with a synthetic.

Wring out a wool garment and you recover your entrapped air AND because wool is porous and can ABsorb water INTO its fiber, less water is ADsorbed ONTO its surface. The result is that wool fibers release ABsorbed water at a slower rate in response to heat addition (loss from the body) than a synthetic fiber, which releases ADsorbed water at a faster rate in response to heat addition (loss from the body).

The short story is that wool fibers act to DAMPEN (slow down the rate) of evaporative cooling, and heat loss due to conduction via water-skin contact as a result of its absorptive nature (which is different than a synthetic) and its fiber resiliency (which is different than cotton).

But warm when soaked – i.e., when the pores are saturated?

Not in my world.

Wring it out, you need to avoid conductive heat loss and restore the airspace in the interstices.

Chapters 5 and 6 of Lightweight Backpacking and Camping address this issue as well.

…statements like these taken from the BPL.com store webpage for the book DrJ link to in his prev. Post in this Thread [note: emphasis mine]:

“Preface: The Benefits of Going Light

Some hikers, upon converting to the ultralight style of backpacking, become rabid proselytizers for the cause, convinced that everyone needs to get their base pack weight below 10 pounds to avoid the eternal damnation of 65-pound packs. Though it may border on blasphemy—since a good chunk of my recent life has been devoted to creating ultralight gear and getting it into the hands of like-minded enthusiasts—I’m not convinced that everyone needs a small base pack weight. If you are young, in great physical shape, your trips consist entirely of relatively short distances into the backcountry to establish base camps for day trips, and you already own a bunch of traditional backpacking gear, you can probably save yourself the trouble of reading this book. “

yeah, we all have inate biases, but it’s statements like that fr/GVP which DrJ was willing to publish (not to mention the keen understanding displayed in DrJ’s post about “ADsorption” and “ABsorbtion”) that make me trust him and cause me to reject my own erroneous understanding in favor of his wisdom and knowledge.

>> Wool clothing will keep you warm when its wet. I mean soaked wet.

If you are wearing clothing that is soaking wet, the rate of body heat loss due to CONDUCTION is so fast that the type of clothing you are wearing is immaterial, because WATER controls the conduction rate.

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You are talking like cold water immersion hypothermia stuff here. In such a case, your best bet would be a wet suit or dry suit. What do divers usually wear under their dry suits in polar diving? WOOL LONG UNDERWEAR! If a little bit of wickedly cold water seeps in around the edges of the dry suit, a heavy wool long john set will take care of it.

On land, a wet suit or dry suit isnt appropriate for a backpacker. A couple layers of wool will suffice though.

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If you get soaking wet, WRING out your clothes so that water plays less of a role.

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I agree with this, very common sense advice.

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Once water content of clothing continues to decrease, entrapped air in fiber interstices now controls the resistance to heat loss.

Wring out cotton and you do not have this luxury because the interstices have collapsed due to a lack of fiber resiliency (e.g., a lack of “springiness”) and you don’t recover your entrapped air.

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Cotton is totally worthless as a cold weather fabric, that is well known.

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Wring out a synthetic and you recover your entrapped air, but there is still much water in the interstices because the water cannot ABsorb INTO the fiber, it sits at the surface (i.e., ADsorption ONTO the fiber surface). Result: evaporative cooling is dramatic with a synthetic.

Wring out a wool garment and you recover your entrapped air AND because wool is porous and can ABsorb water INTO its fiber, less water is ADsorbed ONTO its surface. The result is that wool fibers release ABsorbed water at a slower rate in response to heat addition (loss from the body) than a synthetic fiber, which releases ADsorbed water at a faster rate in response to heat addition (loss from the body).

The short story is that wool fibers act to DAMPEN (slow down the rate) of evaporative cooling, and heat loss due to conduction via water-skin contact as a result of its absorptive nature (which is different than a synthetic) and its fiber resiliency (which is different than cotton).

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This sounds kosher to me, wool dries out more slowly than most synthetics. But down dries out even slower than wool and when wet, it loses all loft…its totally useless.

Thus, why use down products in cold, wet environments? If a person is well trained and disciplined, a down sleeping bag can slide. But down clothing? Come on man.

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But warm when soaked – i.e., when the pores are saturated?

Not in my world.

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You’d be surprised…

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Wring it out, you need to avoid conductive heat loss and restore the airspace in the interstices.

Chapters 5 and 6 of Lightweight Backpacking and Camping address this issue as well.

This post was edited by ryan at 11/22/2006 10:38:48 MST.

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I will get very specific here. Wool is warmER while wet, than any other fabric. It wont keep you as warm when wet as it will when its dry, but the fact it keeps you warm while wet at all is a big big plus.

Also, lets be realistic here. How often do backpackers ever let themselves become soaked to the pore? If it happens, either youve been on a river somewhere or an accident has occurred such as stepping off into a large stream or river.

So lets just say you become “sort of wet” or “highly damp.” Even from heavy perspiration while humping it. Wool will keep you warmer than any other fabric under such conditions.

You are aruing against everything thats ever been said about wool clothing.

Wool IS warmER when wet compared to all other fabrics. (Except possibly Paramo, which I know little about but have heard great things about it).

The real issue here is obsession with super lightweight. When this occurs, it is impossible to be totally objective.

Vlad

p j, sorry, just read your post now.. the 5-toed wool sock I use is by Montbell. If you can’t mail order it, let me know and I’ll mail you a trial pair. (be advised Im in Japan so the mailing cost would be a few bucks higher)
The more I test new merino wool the more I like it. The only problem (if you can call it that) is its TOO warm. I believe the lack of adsorbtion limits the rate of evaporative cooling, so it lags behind my metabolic changes, absorbing perspiration instead of ‘forcing’ it to evaporate and cool me.. Capilene keeps up with my metabolic changes quicker (the flash cooling others talk about)

Here’s the sock, Montbell calls it a 5 toed “travel” sock. I was doubtful when reading about reduced odors compared to poly socks, but it truly works. (oh yeah, your color choices are HCH, MBN, and the ever popular “NV”)

https://www2.montbell.com/japanese/asp/products/Spg_shosai.asp?cat=3004&hinban=1108610

Brett, thanks for the reply and link. i’ll take a look at the Montbell website.

Vlad:
I have been reading the posts here related to your “bais in writing” observations. There is one aspect of this ongoing debate that perhaps has been overlooked by you. There is an active, well-informed and critical readership here on the BPL site that often questions the reviewer’s bais or opinion. You have done so. And your bais has been questioned by others and their bais has been questioned as well. Debate is the stuff out which comes true wisdom and knowledge. The catalyst is often a review, but could just as easily be a forum post about one’s experience with a particular piece of gear.

I reviewed the Montrail Stratos and Inov8 shoes as being at best sub-optimal for hiking and many posters wrote back that their experience was precisely the oposite. Is one wrong and the other right? We have become a culture that believes that we are engaged in a zero sum game whenever we debate an issue. One is either a true believer or a heratic.

So, take a deep breath and notice that even on this series of posts, not a single poster has ridiculed your “perspective” on the the issue of the East vs the West bais or on down vs wool. BPL posters and, INMHO, the staff accept critical reaction and correction with grace and humor. We are all explorers in the wilderness learning from each other.

Mitchell, after reading your eloquent and insightful post, i just felt that i had to say “thank you” to you for posting such wonderful words.

Vlad,

three things:

1) i notice that you don’t have the “badge of honor” (the red ‘M’) next to your name on your posts. The red ‘M’ signifies that a person is a “Premium Member” of the BPL.com community.

2) i haven’t checked, but it’s possible that some of the links that DrJ provided may be premium content and so you wouldn’t be able to view and read the fine articles. Again, i haven’t taken the time to verify whether this is true or not in even one of the links, so i’m just speaking off the top of my head, but have seen this particular scenario happen before, so am assuming that it might be the case here.

3) this brings me to my point. if you feel that you would like and really make use (which i truly believe in your case you probably will make great use of it) of a BPL Premium Membership, i would like to purchase one for you.

If you are interested in this “no strings attached offer” (well, since i’m so tight and cheap and don’t like to waste money, really there is one string attached, viz. you give me your word [one ex-military guy to another – your honor is at stake here] that you have both the time and inclination to really make use of the Premium Membership and read the articles with an open mind , i will be very happy to contact BPL via their support Forums (or DrJ if he reads this Post can post back or PM me) to find out how i can pay and have them apply it to your current non-premium membership.

You seem like a decent guy (though a bit opinionated – i guess it takes one to know one!) with a real interest in backpacking, so i don’t think i’m taking much of a risk here that it will turn out that i wasted my time and resources in this instance.

Oh,…plus you get discounts on gear, like tiny lightweight folding Titanium Esbit stoves, at the BPL on-line “store” – i know from your other Posts (haven’t missed reading one yet) that this is of interest to you.

So, whada’ya say? Let me know.

sincerely,
pj

EDIT:
Vlad, it just occurred to me that if you don’t see this Post soon, i may be unable to reply to you or touch base with BPL regarding my offer until later this coming Sunday, due to some holiday plans. Please don’t take my lack of immediate response as a “re-consideration” or a “reneg”. I’ll check back as often as i can over the next few days – which won’t be very often and some of the next few days won’t be at all if all plans come off as planned. Have a great holiday yourself. take care, pj

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Hi PJ,

Wow I am blown away by your offer to pay for an online subscription of BPL for me. You are a nice guy…thank you for your offer.

Please do not be offended though…I would feel extremely guilty if I accepted the offer. I havent joined BPL online yet, because I havent yet read the “core” ultra-light backpacking books such as “Lighten Up” and Ray Jardine’s book and a handful of others. If I joined this online site right now, I would spend too much time reading articles here (its very addicting because I am interested in the subjects).

I have already subscribed to the print edition of BPL. That, along with several books, one of which I just received and Ray Jardine’s book is on the way, is enough for me for now.

Once Ive read “Lighten Up” and Ray Jardine’s book and maybe my first edition of print BPL, I was planning on subscribing to the online BPL. During the Christmas break probably.

Actually I have already read about half of “Lighten up!” and some of it is very explanatory. I now understand the difference between all these different weights I read you guys talking about on here. And I understand what the cutoff weights are for lightweight, UL and SUL backpacking. I didnt know these “formal” weights until just a day or two…after reading that book.

Some of that book however, I am already vehemently disagreeing with. Although I will go into that later. I am already planning on how I can get an east coast, 5 day long WINTER trip into the UL range.

One thing in the introduction of “Lighten Up!” that didnt surprise me is a warning that ultralight and SUL backpacking isnt intended for winter trips, unless you are very experienced and basically an expert. That would be myself and I can already see how I could get my load into the UL range for a cold weather trip.

Again, thank you for your offer…it is very generous. But I will be subscribing to the online version of BPL soon so I can read all these great articles that I am missing out on.

Ive got to hit the road, have to drive about an hour and a half to see my family for Thanksgiving. It is cold, wet and rainy outside here <grin>.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and pig out!

later,

Vlad

BTW, did you know one of the best ways to stay warm in cold weather is to get a lot of calories into your system? Its almost as important as the right clothing. One “trick” I learned in BSA backpacking is for cold weather backpacking, before you go to bed, melt a pat of butter or margarine or other very high fat food into a mug of hot cocoa. The fat releases “slow burning” calories into your system all night long as you sleep, helping you stay warm on those sub 20 degree F nights.

That could be a “UL” trick to help stay warm.

Vlad,

Many thanks for replying. Have no worries, no offense taken. I’ll keep it as an open offer to you should the need arise.

Have a great Thanksgiving with your family.

Take care,
pj

p.s.
Oh, by the way, i’ve found out that there are a whole bunch of really nice people on this website – most/all probably much nicer than myself. I think that i could be friends with most of them if they could put up with me and my idiosyncracies. Give them all a chance and you’ll come to the same conclusion as i have come to. This place is different than so many other places. There are good people here. I sincerely hope that you will choose to remain and be one of them.

Vlad writes >> Also, lets be realistic here. How often do backpackers ever let themselves become soaked to the pore? If it happens, either youve been on a river somewhere or an accident has occurred such as stepping off into a large stream or river. << Actually I have on several occasions, most notably during my PCT thru-hike while traversing around Glacier Peak in the North Cascades of Washington. After a long night of rain, I awoke to dreary morning of rain and fog. The first challenge of the day was a 2500 foot climb to the top of a ridge through an over grown avalanche shoot. Since it was late summer and all the plants were dying, they lay across the trail requiring me to literally swim my way through the vegetation. It wasn’t long before I was totally drenched to the core. By the time I topped the ridge into to the open, the rain had turned to snow and I entered a whiteout. The rest of that 25 mile day was spent hiking either through the snow on open ridges or through the rainy valley. I covered the 25 miles with one 10 minute break because stopping for any significant time would have meant setting up shelter and changing to dry clothes. Walking generates heat which kept me going. What I wore on that occasion was a pair of nylon shorts with nylon rain pants (more for wind protection than to keep dry). On top I had a base layer of long sleeve silk tee shirt, Suplex nylon shirt and Frogg Toggs jacket (again for wind protection). While wool may have kept me slightly warmer it would have made no difference in the outcome of the hike. Once I arrived in camp, I setup my shelter, replace my wet clothes with dry ones and crawled into my down sleeping bag. >> You are arguing against everything that’s ever been said about wool clothing. << From what I’ve read, no one’s arguing against wool clothes. If that’s your choice, it’s perfectly fine. What people have been saying is that with proper understanding, wool isn’t your only option. The knowledgeable hiker learns that not wearing wool isn’t a death sentence anymore than wearing cotton is. The role of Backpacking Light to enlighten people that there are often many solutions to a given problem. Over the years, too much of traditional backpacking turned into a dogma of uniform and safe thought and practice. Even when Jardine wrote his tome about ultralight, he fell into the trap of my way or the highway train of thought. With new solutions to problems coming out on almost a daily basis, we are finally getting beyond the notion that there’s only one way of doing things. Sometimes we’ll read other people solutions of how they solve a problem. We’ll try it out only to discover it doesn’t work for us. Still that doesn’t make it any less viable. I love it when I see a post of a new solution, even if it’s not my cup of tea. But I absolutely hate it when someone gets online and starts spouting fiats about what is or isn’t proper backcountry gear. None of us are Gods, fortunately the lawyers haven’t found these forums yet and I’m way too old to worry about what my folks think. A calm query into the rational behind why someone chose one solutions over another is perfectly fine and contributes to our overall understanding. However, demands that people conform to some prescribed set of beliefs is neither informative or appreciated. Ron Moak