Neoprene Hoody

Steven,

Thanks for the link. I found the one you were talking about as well as another that might fit me a bit better. They call it the grizzly. They say it is for barrel chested boaters (i.e. fat guys). Reminds me of Levi's ad many years ago for their fat guy jeans. Said they were for muscled guys who need a scosh more room in their thighs.

(edited-couldn't get my link to grizzly to work)

Daryl

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vapor_barrier_liners.html

Anna,

Thanks for the link to the vapor barrier article. Lotta good info there. I read the whole thing. The RBH designs company he mentioned has some interesting (and expensive) products, including the vpr thrm jacket that Douglas mentioned earlier. I just posted a link to their cuben fiber jacket, for example.

My goal with recent experiments and purchases is to find a lightweight way to implement the vapor barrier strategies to address my physiology and the typical weather that I encounter.

Also, just for your info, I never blamed the cow.

CCF is quite a bit different from any of the neoprene I've ever used. The neoprene that I've used (wetsuits) would be the last thing I'd want in an insulating layer.

I know that neoprene is heavier than most closed cell foam but it also drapes better. Is there some other reason why you wouldn't want it as an insulating layer?

The more I know before getting my rubber jacket the better.

Neoprene jacket arrived. It was everything I had hoped for and more……much more….weight. It weighs 2 lbs 12 ounces and, even with points for multiple use, I can't justify using it for backpacking.

I've directed my research staff to continue their efforts toward building me a coat from the lighter weight closed cell foams. My experiments have continued to be promising on this front.

Daryl,
A heavy, non-breathable, absorptive material that's designed for underwater use like neoprene is about the worst candidate to make a backpacking shirt out of. If you're dead-set on going the vapor-barrier route, then closed-cell foam is at least 1) light and 2) non-absorptive. I agree it doesn't drape well, but drape is literally the only thing neoprene has going for it. If you're up for sewing, maybe try sewing a down or synthetic-fill jacket with a silnylon shell. You would have to seal all the seams, or maybe even add another layer (like a poncho) to make it waterproof, but at least it would be a vapor barrier.

Personally, I never really bought into the vapor barrier approach because at the end of the day in camp, I'd be all wet and cold if I took it off. And if I didn't take it off, I'd just be wet. I think vapor barriers are really only good for deep winter.

That said, I tend to agree with Roger that the problem with you sweating so much that your clothes get wet lies in your selection of clothing, not with the clothing itself. Most backpackers (it sounds like you are among the majority here) simply work up more body heat while active. Hiking down a trail with a big backpack over your shoulders burns a lot of Calories and allows me to be more comfortable in cold weather with fewer warm clothes. In general, I would wear a base layer and a down jacket while not moving, but only a base layer while moving, in anything above 32*F weather. Yes, I'm chilly for the first 5-10 minutes of hiking, and I'm chilly whenever I stop for a rest, but I warm up pretty quickly, after which time I'm hiking at a very comfortable temperature.

I agree with Art. I don't doubt that you sweat a lot. I also don't doubt that you get cold from it. I think you'll find that this is true for many of us. I also sweat profusely during mild activity and I'm very cold natured so I feel your pain. When I hike at 30F temps I will wear PowerStretch pants and a synthetic base layer top, covered with a fleece pullover. For the first 10 minutes I curse the whole way complaining that I'm going to die from frostbite (I'm a little dramatic at times). But then I start to feel the sweat run down my back and I know I need to take the fleece off. But I don't want to because I'm still cold! I find it quite uncomfortable at times because my core is hot and sweating but my face, arms, hands, and butt cheeks are blocks of ice. Sometimes I even start to feel nauseous from this contrast. But you know what I've found? I think this is normal and a lot of people have it happen. I just have to work through it. Putting on more layers just makes me wetter. Ideally the sweat will evaporate off at a rate that my body can keep up with, but often it's quite damp in the winter and I stay wet. In other words, I'll bet your experience is more common that you realize. We don't often discuss how we physically feel with others. We often assume we're the weird one when in reality we're just unaware that others feel the same.

My solution? I wear just a base layer on my upper body. Then I wear a hat and gloves and tie my fleece around my hips to keep my butt warm (being a girl with hips makes this important…likely not an issue for a guy). I make sure my feet are super warm and toasty. And I make absolutely sure that I put that fleece pullover back on the minute we stop moving. If we're stopping longer than for lunch, I change out of that wet base layer and put on a new one. My next purchases will be for merino wool base layers. My socks are all handmade fluffy merino and I can't brag enough about how great they handle moisture while staying warm.

I'm going backpacking in Scotland myself week after next and I'm honestly afraid I'm going to be chilled the whole trip. I'm already summer acclimated (Missouri Ozarks here) and I'm psyching myself up for the cold frigid UK summer. What fun, eh?

Hi Ginger,

Although you may find some cool days in Scotland this time of year, it will also probably muggy and warm. I remember summers there that were actually quite hot and even dry.

Unless you are way up north, I'd compare Scotland to the Pacific Northwest or Atlantic North East of the US. Lots of rainfall, but lots of sunny weather as well.

I don't remember ever not being warm in the summer in the southern part.

There are many experts on Scotland that may correct me on this:-)

Art and Ginger,

Thanks for taking the time to detail your experience. Everything you say makes sense and over the last 40 years I've tried to follow the exact advice you are giving…… hundreds of times.

Art's experience:
"but only a base layer while moving, in anything above 32*F weather. Yes, I'm chilly for the first 5-10 minutes of hiking, and I'm chilly whenever I stop for a rest, but I warm up pretty quickly, after which time I'm hiking at a very comfortable temperature."

My experience:
but only a base layer while moving, in anything above 32*F weather. Yes, I'm chilly for the first 5-10 minutes of hiking AND I CONTINUE TO GET COLDER AND COLDER AS I HIKE. MY BODY CANNOT OVERCOME THE COOLING EFFECT OF THE SWEAT.

A number of times I've allowed myself to stay cold for hours as I hiked to see if at some point my body will overcome the chilling effects of the sweat…like it apparently does for you two. It rarely does. These are risky experiments for me. I've allowed myself to get so cold that my hands can barely open a zipper and it takes me several hours to warm up enough to even go to sleep.

Example: A couple of years ago my low-sweating friend Eric and I were backpacking up a mountain pass with temps in the low 30s. I started off with a short sleeve polypro shirt. He started off with a short sleeve polypro shirt and a fleece pullover. As we hiked he got comfortably warm and took off the fleece. I got wetter and wetter and colder and colder and, after about a half hour, started adding clothing to regain some warmth. A couple of hours later, upon reaching the pass, he was wearing just the short sleeve shirt and was warm. I was wearing the short sleeve shirt, a fiberfill jacket, a windbreaker, a raincoat over the windbreaker (it wasn't raining) and a stocking cap and was still very wet and very cold.

Sooooo, my current protocol is to wear the least amount of clothing that will keep me warm while hiking, knowing that all this clothing will get wet. Then changing into dry clothing when I get to camp. When hiking vigorously I usually have only two choices. (1) wet and cold or (2) wet and warm. I'm choosing the wet and warm option and some sort of closed cell foam clothing, so far, appears to be an attractive option for me. I just came back from a 3 night backpack with temps around 50F (+- 5 degrees), using a closed cell foam coat as my insulating layer. It worked wonderfully.