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Exped synamat ul 7 vs neoair


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  • #1794705
    scri bbles
    BPL Member

    @scribbles

    Locale: Atlanta, GA

    Former NeoAir user, shook all night at just above freezing on the AT w/ a 35F WM Caribou MF. Switched out for an Synmat UL7 and achieved some of my best backcountry rest yet.

    #1794781
    Cody Lebow
    Member

    @clebow

    Locale: Orange County

    Im a former neo user as well, exped is far more comfy for me. Just had a chance to do back to back testing in havasupai when my GF started complaining about not sleeping well on her neo. We traded pads the last night and she slept much better and I slept a little worse. The big baffles on the exped really do make it feel much wider. If they make a 25" short synmat I think it would be the perfect pad.

    #1794850
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Wow a lot of people are stoked on the Exped….neat to hear for sure. It's almost like Exped is paying people to post here :)

    #1794854
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    Exped's okay. I wish it were wider. I used mine for the first time last weekend in CA. Got down to around 30-35 and I stayed nice and warm. Can't really say which I like better – NeoAir or Synmat UL7. Synmat certainly feels more substantial, that might be enough to tip the scales in its favor. But I'm not one of those who thinks it's far and away better than the NeoAir. I like my NeoAir.

    #1794861
    Eli .
    Member

    @feileung

    I haven't used either very much but I have slept on both.

    I used my UL7 for the first time last weekend at the same site Doug mentioned. I was warm and had no issues with sliding off.

    The pad wasn't "OMG" comfortable but I did prefer it to the Neoair. One of the main differences for me was based on the fact that I prefer to sleep w/the pad slightly deflated. On the Neoair the pad seemed to bulge away from my pressure points and push up into some other part of my body. When sleeping on my back the pad caused me to arch uncomfortably. This didn't happen on the UL7. It seemed like maybe the fabric flexed/absorbed more of the pressure w/o distorting other areas? I'm not really sure but it did work better for me.

    #1794896
    Joe Clement
    BPL Member

    @skinewmexico

    Locale: Southwest

    Keep your Neoair Doug, and I'll give you $50 for that worn out used UL 7.

    #1794912
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "Keep your Neoair Doug, and I'll give you $50 for that worn out used UL 7."

    Joe, you're too kind. I'll get it in the mail to you tomor……..wait a second! You're good, man. You almost had me there…… ;-)

    #1794975
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    No 25" wide Exped. Too bad. Advantage Neoair. Has anyone tried the Nemo Cosmo Pads?

    #1795028
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    "Has anyone tried the Nemo Cosmo Pads?"

    No…I've never looked at this pad seriously. I just checked and it's 29oz….tough to justify that when you could get a large NeoAir for way less weight.

    #1795031
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    Oh that's a pig isn't it?

    #1795076
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Well it's the same as two NeoAir's plus a 1oz Kookabay Pillow…so yeah it's sort of a pig. In other words, that's a little bit more than my current sleeping pad (9oz NeoAir Small), pack (5oz Zpacks Zero w options) and sleeping quilt (14oz custom M55/900fp) all added together.

    I always hate gaining weight, which is why this sleeping pad decision is so tough for me. I want to sleep better, but I also want to avoid 'feature creep' where I slowly add in weight over time thinking each small gain is a good idea, but then it 5 years I look back at the end result and realize I'm right back where I started. For me, a 7oz gain is huge. I mean, I just paid $400 to save 5oz (replace sleeping quilt with one made of lighter fabrics and better down). Other options would be a Klymit X Frame (no weight gain, but really only a summer pad) or a regular NeoAir (+ 5oz) or maybe find some better way to support my feet (fill pack under my feet with platy's?)

    #1795431
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Well it looks like I'm in the Synmat UL club now. I came across a used Synmat UL 7 (medium) on eBay that has 'two small patches' on it from the Exped warranty department. $75 seemed like a pretty good deal to me. The 'two small patches' appear to be just to the left of the Exped logo….they are indeed very small if I'm seeing the picture correctly (it's larger on my screen, BPL drops the size):

    Synmat UL7

    One thing that seems a bit off is the MSRP of the Synmat UL. The Synmat UL is the same basic design as the regular Synmat, but with the Synmat UL you don't get the internal pump, you get less of the same type of insulation but it uses a lighter nylon shell so the price goes up 30% ($119 vs. $155)? I understand the lighter weight nylon might cost Exped a little more since it's a new fabric, but surely the deletion of the entire internal pump mechanism along with using significantly less insulation (R. 3.1 vs. R 4.9) is enough to offset this. Exped also sells the Synmat Basic with is just a regular Synmat with no pump, less insulation and different baffle construction and it's $80.

    It seems that the NeoAir might be the more durable pad, despite initial impressions here. I trust that the Synmat UL uses nicer fabric (ie. not as loud and plastic feeling) and I do look forward to that, but it's thinner nylon (20 denier vs. 30 denier) so the NeoAir should have the tougher shell of the two. I've also found one report of the baffles coming apart in the Synmat UL, which I've never yet heard of for the NeoAir despite it's tremendous popularity.

    "Another former Neoair user…The UL7 is…less slippery."

    I'm a little suspicious about the 'less slippery' thing. The BPL measured the NeoAir as a lot more grippy, and on REI.com there are 23 reviews for the Synmat, of which 4 people (17 %) mention 'slips easy' is somewhat of a problem. With the NeoAir there are 131 reviews and 9 (7%) say it slips, which is a far lower percentage.
    http://www.rei.com/product/811907/exped-synmat-ul-7-air-pad

    "I store mine under my bed with both valves open."
    When stored with the valves open, does the mattress puff up a little due to the insulation? Or is the insulation too weak to actually inflate the mattress at all. If it did puff up the mattress a bit, that would really help with drying it out and it might make the mattress a bit easier to inflate on the trail because you could leave it to inflate a bit on it's own before puffing it up the rest of the way.

    #1795436
    Kyle Meyer
    BPL Member

    @kylemeyer

    Locale: Portland, OR

    http://www.thegearcaster.com/the_gearcaster/2011/07/therm-a-rest-neoair-gets-warmer-and-lighter.html

    What about the Neoair XTherm or Neoair XLite that'll be available in January?

    The XTherm is 15.2oz and R5.7… there won't be any reason for the Synmat UL 7 to exist in two months. The XTherm will be 1oz lighter and R2.6 warmer. Alternatively, the XLite is R3.2 and 12oz.

    Either way, nobody should be buying the existing crop of mats right now unless you need a pad now.

    #1795437
    adam spates
    Member

    @adamspates

    Locale: southeast

    Look around on the web….when resaerching pads a year ago, I read multiple reviews of neoair pad separating baffles and creating big pillows in the middle of the pad. I distinctly remember one man bought 4 NA's for his family and 2 had this problem. I believe that review was on REI.

    As for the Exped being slippery, I've had mine more than a year now and have never chased my pad and I'm in a mummy bag with a slippery bottom unlike a quilt.

    #1795441
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    "The XTherm is 15.2oz and R5.7"

    I will wait until the pad is tested by BPL. Given I (and many others) have difficulty in using the regular NeoAir to freezing, I believe that the R5.7 will be unattainable without insulation.

    Oh, and it will be $200.

    #1795442
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    "Either way, nobody should be buying the existing crop of mats right now unless you need a pad now."

    My primary reason for purchasing the Synmat is comfort. I think there's a good chance I'll find the vertical baffles, fatter edge tubes and slightly wider width to give me a better nights sleep. The new NeoAir pads are indeed warmer (Xtherm) and lighter (Xlite) but they're not going to be any more comfortable then the current NeoAir (which is reasonably comfortable). If anything they'll be a bit less comfortable due to the tapered shapes. Absolutely I would love my pad to weigh 12oz (Xlite) instead of 16oz, but I already have a good idea how comfortable that pad is going to be. If the Synmat is no more comfortable (for me) then I'll sell it and probably buy an Xlite or Xtherm. If I do sleep significantly better on it, then it's worth the extra ounces.

    R-value isn't really a concern for me as I'm shopping for a 3 season pad and I find R 2.5 to be totally adequate for this, but I am super impressed with the technology in the Xtherm. I think it's amazing what Thermarest has done with this pad, and it would be hands-down the pad I want to use in the winter.

    Too bad Thermarest has decided to sell the new NeoAir Xlite in only retina-scorching yellow (or canary yellow as they call it). It's also amazing that they managed to stoop even lower with the womens model by added a hideous pattern onto the retina-scorching yellow. I was never a big fan of the original NeoAir color (too bright) but these new colors are far worse. I'm not big into fashion when I hike, but I do prefer it if my gear isn't a glaring eye-sore. Thankfully they've choosen a tasteful color for the Xtherm.

    #1795443
    Warren Greer
    Spectator

    @warrengreer

    Locale: SoCal

    In this case, we're talking about the quality of sleep, which is priceless when your doing miles each day. The better you sleep, the better you perform. The few ounces you may have to add back in will be more than made up for when your well-rested body performs at higher rates and therefore you have greater enjoyment of the time you spend out there.

    Man, this thread is hot. I thought my post would be below Dan's back on page 2. But Dan you did say it was about comfort. That's what I was getting at in the words above. I hope you really like your new pad.

    #1795444
    Kyle Meyer
    BPL Member

    @kylemeyer

    Locale: Portland, OR

    David, when have Thermarest's ratings ever been less than they quoted? The original Neoair was tested by BPL to average a better R value than they advertise. Given that, I'd expect the XTherm to similarly be accurate considering the obvious fact that Thermarest is at least rating their pads consistently internally. Also, when have high prices for performant, UL gear ever stopped anyone?

    I've slept well on a Neoair below freezing. There are numerous factors that affect the outcome such as wind, humidity, hydration, exhaustion, top insulation, etc, that it seems foolish to dismiss a pad because you personally slept cold a night or five.

    #1795447
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    Hi Kyle – actually no. BPL measured it at its rated warmth assuming it was filled to the gills. However, my experience (and many others) is that the pad's R-value is lacking. My Synmat has proven considerably warmer for me in exactly the same conditions that I used the NeoAir in. YMMV may vary, of course.

    But yes, I do not believe that the 5.7R value is realistic without insulation.

    I would not consider it an "obvious fact" that Thermarest rates their pads consistently with one independent validation by BPL. What other Thermarest products have been independently tested?

    #1795448
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    "BPL measured [the NeoAir] at its rated warmth assuming it was filled to the gills. "

    BPL has measured the R-value of the NeoAir on two occasions. The first was for the original review of the NeoAir, where it tested at R 3.0 (2.5" thick) and at R 2.6 (2.0" thick). Both measurements exceeded Thermarests claim of R 2.5.

    The second time BPL tested the R-value of the NeoAir was recently for the SOTM report on sleeping pads. In this report they tested it 11 times over a wider range of inflation levels. On the low end, they tested it pretty much empty (1" thick) and recorded R 1.6. On the other extreme they measured R 6.1. Most importantly, it tested higher than Thermarests claims all the way from 1.4" thick to the max. That's 9 out of 11 tests higher than claimed. BPL concludes by saying "clearly Cascade Designs is being quite conservative with their warmth claim".

    Links:
    SOTM: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/thermarest_neoair_prolite_deluxe_le_mats
    Original NeoAir Review: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/thermarest_neoair_review.html

    Chart from SOTM:
    NeoAir R-value

    #1795451
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    If I could only magically change the denier.

    Edit: The fabric on the Klymit seems way overkill.

    #1795455
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    To what? There's the NeoAir trekker or All season if you want thicker fabrics.

    #1795473
    Nathan Stuart
    Member

    @forest-2

    Locale: Hunter Valley - Australia

    I've been watching this thread with some interest as I'm in the market for a new pad right now.

    Interestingly the Aussie prices seem to be cheaper than the US prices on the Exped synmat ?? That's a first !!

    I can have a synmat UL7 M for $125 AUD including postage which is more than half the price of a Neoair over here. Wow decision made nearly on price alone.

    One question I do have to the R ratings is the thickness ??
    If they say a R rating of say 4.1 @ 60mm on a Neoair. Does that mean it has to be pumped up hard enough to be 60mm with a person laying on it ??

    I've played with a Neoair and to get one to maintain a good thickness when you lay on it they sure feel hard ?? My attraction to the thicker pads is for comfort, if they need to be pumped up rock hard to have decent warmth whats the point ??

    #1795483
    Drop Bear
    BPL Member

    @dropbear

    I got my ul7 a little cheaper from Bivouac with free shipping.

    #1795485
    Nathan Stuart
    Member

    @forest-2

    Locale: Hunter Valley - Australia

    Thanks for the heads up.
    Not a huge difference when you add a conversion fee but still…..
    MMM Tempting, will be at the Dunedin store in NZ next Saturday stocking up for our Routeburn walk….. Might need a new mat while I'm there.

    Good store, I have purchased a few things from them including two osprey packs. they have some great deals eh and the free postage on items over $100 NZ to OZ is great.

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