Friendly expertise on camping. Please READ!!

"Double wall because it breathes better (less condensation) than a single wall. Double wall because You have venting options when you do bring both parts with (and "windows"). And Double wall because now there are two layers to protect me from bears. ;)"

I think I prefer my venting options with tarp (or Duomid). Can't do much about bears — except that in a tarp you see all around you night and realize your nightmares really aren't bears in the campsite. Usually a doe. Or a chipmunk.

Hi Mom.

With cuben double walled tents now at 14oz and silnylon double walled solo shelters @ 19oz, there is really no reason to bivy and tarp unless you really like the 'experience.'

Now you're got me really daydreaming (at work). I estimate my Moment is close to 29 oz. Getting down to 16 oz. is drool-worthy. I'm going to do research here this evening.

Course I'd have to figure out a good sales pitch to get approval on spending $200 or so on (another) fancy toy.

what double wall cuben tent are you referring to?

Mark,

the Cuben Lightheart Solo:

http://www.lightheartgear.com/LightHeart_Gear/Cuben.html

14oz!!

The problem I have with all-in-one tents is the lack of flexibility and of course the tight quarters.

Have you ever had a situation where your tent won't fit in the only clear area for miles around and it's pouring rain?

Usually just the ultralight bivy alone is all you need on most summer nights, that way you can cowboy camp without dew or light rain being an issue. The bivy acts as ground cloth and helps keep the bag clean.

The tarp can come out when you want sun, rain or wind protection.

But, I grew up cowboy and tarp camping so I am acclimated to that kind of shelter. Agoraphobia sets in for most campers if they sleep under a tarp, so a tent is the only option for them.
Claustrophobia in a tent is my issue:-)

I'm not even going to get into the double vs single wall debate since that has been hashed out more times than Charlie Sheen has made an Ass of himself, but I'll just point out a few things for the sake of discussion:

Keep in mind that these comments are comparing traditional double wall tents, not necessarily the UL tarp and nettent combo that is effectively a double wall "tent."

"Double wall because of the option of going lighter if I need to by leaving the screen portion at home."
–single wall tents are inherently lighter to begin with. No need to leave parts behind. No parts to even leave behind!

"Double wall because it breathes better (less condensation) than a single wall."
–yes, condensation is something you have to think about less in a double wall. However, it's still there. With proper venting and pitching techniques, you can minimize condensation in single wall shelters. Now, if you leave that nice "screen portion" of your double wall tent at home to save weight, then you are right back to a single wall shelter anyways.

"Double wall because You have venting options when you do bring both parts with (and "windows")"
–Any single wall shelter worth it's weight (IMHO) has venting options built in, and often they have way more venting options than most double wall tents. Tarptent's Double Rainbow has two peak vents, the entire bottom perimeter is mesh so venting happens there too. You can also set up both "porches" for expansive views and venting, even in some pretty hard rain.

Now, winter and above treeline conditions are a whole 'nother story…..

There are some pretty nice lightweight double wall tents out there. For the weight and my camping conditions, I personally have no reason to go back to a double wall tent.

Ok….I guess I did get into the merits of double vs single anyways!

I have never found a single walled shelter than can allow the user to manage condensation as well as with a double walled shelter in all conditions. The nice thing about a double walled shelter is that when the fly is wet, you can pack it away separately and keep the inner dry. Can't do that with a single walled shelter.

I assume the reason to use both a bivy sack and a tarp is because of splash? IF, that is the reason, then why not carry a slightly larger tarp? Large enough that you would be away from the splash. It seems like that would be a lighter option and just less things to worry about and to buy?

Honest question, not looking to pick a fight with anyone.

David, that Lightheart is quite amazing. Probably in a league of its own. I've been eyeing them for a while, but whenever I pick up my wallet to buy one, it slaps me.

>The nice thing about a double walled shelter is that when the fly is wet, you can pack it away separately and keep the inner dry. Can't do that with a single walled shelter.

This is true.

However, silnylon does dry amazingly fast, especially when wiped down. If there's any moisture from the night before, I wipe it down and let it dry before I pack it up, which takes just a few minutes. If I have to pack up quick, I'll do a wipe-down when I set it up. I do realize that sometimes it can be wet and damp for days on end, and wiping things down doesn't really help much. These conditions are the minority, and so I am completely happy with managing with a single wall.

God I love how this thread has gone on, and on….and ON! Poor Ahren, never knew what a fan his $hit would hit

But I digress on your digressions.

True, Ahren "may" have offered expertise that is taken as common knowledge here on BPL but hey, if he can help me out on non-Garmin apps for my Colorado GPS then I'll be happy to take his advice. I'm sure he has some kernels on info that many can use.

I posted this in another thread but heck, it works just as well here:

I think this question and thread pops up every month. I'm pretty convinced that certainly with an 8×10 tarp, but also with a properly pitched smaller tarp, that you can forego the bivy for precipitation-related concerns. BUT, as this thread with snakes indicates, there are other factors to your shelter. I leave my bivy at home when I tarp in spring/fall when cold temperatures and bugs are not issues. In the summer, I use a bivy as bug protection and in the winter, as an important part of staying warm on the snow with my current sleep system. The main reason I bivy and tarp in general nowadays is to provide flexibility like this. (And for many months in the year when I don't need either the bivy or the tarp, my shelter options become incredibly light.)

Bigger Tarp Bonus: the ability to quickly pitch in the rain for a quick lunch break or hanging out in the evening/morning and having a small group stay dry is super clutch. You can eat/drink/cook a little . . . and nobody is crammed into an itty-bitty tent or heading off to bed early because there's no place to stay dry. So the "experience" and flexibility become important reasons to tarp and bivy.

Good reasoning Evan. I'm curious, if you decide to just bring a tarp, do you use a ground cloth or just put your sleep-system on the ground?

I can totally see the arguments for being more open under a tarp, just as long as the gotchas are handled.

cheers,
jason

I think of a bivy as a way to cowboy camp when the forecast is reasonably good. The bivy acts as a ground cloth and keeps a majority of dew or even light rain off the bag or quilt.

It also allows you additional protection when using a poncho or other small small tarp on trips where weather goes bad.

The bivy does also reduces drafts and adds bug protection when needed.

I do sometimes go the 8×10 with no bivy route from time to time as well.

Namely, SMD Gatewood Cape! I am in love and have been for years. Thanks Ron! Woooot!

I mean, can you imagine the face of a typical REI customer seeing one of those? I get thoughts of a 600 pound person, shopping for clothes, staring at a thong…

I am at work and I just read every single one of these posts. This is a prime example of why I lurk and learn. Definitely some good laughs in here.

….creeps back into the darkness

Namely, SMD Gatewood Cape

Not enough demand to stock it in their stores. And if it did sell well, Ron could not keep up with the demand, REI would want it made sturdier (and heavier) so they would not have too many returns based on their generous return policy.

Lets face it, we are a niche group. A very small and light group. Besides, I like calling up the owner and often the guy/gal building my gear. GoLite got big and had to move towards the center and many people here complain about it. Of course waiting 4-8 weeks causes anxiety versus the instant gratification at REI. I do buy quite a bit of stuff from REI each year, but not usually "gear."

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Problem is I am too spoiled. I can just walk over to Ron's house and buy whatever he has in the garage.

I mean, can you imagine? Being able to walk into a store and dive into everything these cottage companies offer? (salivating at the thought)

-labeled gear ho

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Absolutely! Can you imagine going into REI and getting a MLD, SM, TT shelter; or a Nanatek or EE quilt, right of the shelf with all the diferrent options available right there? But alas, we can only dream.

think alike!

This setup worked great when I got light snow, though i had to rerig the polycryo during the night to keep the snow out. I have a better front door now..: