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Does tarp + bivy actually save all that much over a tent?

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Viewing 16 posts - 26 through 41 (of 41 total)
PostedFeb 28, 2011 at 7:55 pm

This is a terrific discussion. I'm bouncing like a madman trying to decide on a Lunar Solo, hammock and tarp, or bug bivy/bug tent and tarp, or Luna Solo and Tarp. (as a lean-to)

Mary – I have a hard time testing in my back yard also – I hate dog pooie. LOL

I've had great times base camping using a lean-to just to hang out with a small fire on rainy days. But when it's windy and cold, might as well hunker down in the tent and sleep through it.

Anyone here use a Whelan style lean-to and bug bivy or small bug tent? Or any style lean-to open enough to have a small fire under (ugh, w/o burning holes thru it) and yet can close off pretty good if the weather is just plain bad?

(edited to add bug tent. I hate bug bites.)

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 1, 2011 at 6:24 am

I made something similar to a Whelan Lean To – large open face

Used it on a trip up the Deschutes River from the Columbia River

Windy – guessing maybe 30 MPH

The lean to blew all over the place and the pole eventually punched through the tent fabric

I could have designed this a little better, but

Open face is very susceptible to wind

Much better to have all sides fairly close to ground

James Marco BPL Member
PostedMar 1, 2011 at 8:41 am

Yeah, I made a Whelan style lean-to. I made this based on an old design but out of the more modern silnylon a few years ago…six? I have used it every car camping trip since then. I have had it blow down 4 times. But, this thing is very large and it took a 30mph wind to do it. 6 UL stakes were all I use in it. It measures 14'x10' with a 2' overhang in front and two
12'x14' wings off the sides. It is designed to set up with two 7'-10' poles. It covers a picnic table and a 2-man tent and the fire out the front with plenty of room to walk around…about, 250sqft. A good tarp that I have been repeatedly asked to produce. Really, not that interested in production stuff. It weighs in at three pounds, though, a bit heavy for back country work.

I am in the process of building a second, much smaller one for back country use. This is more like this:
Whelan Tarp

Note that this is the materieal cut layout. Roughly 5' wide by 5'6" long with a 16" overhang.
The overhang corners attach to the side wings. About 1lb or so with a pair of hiking staffs.

PostedMar 1, 2011 at 9:02 am

I use the adventure medical kits bivy, about 8.5 ounces. It serves as an emergency reflective heat barrier if I ever take a dip and everything is soaked, a water proof ground cloth, and when necessary during nasty storms will keep my bag from getting soaked. It also serves as a water proof stuff sack for when my sleeping bag is dry and ready to be put away.

I cut it down and added a zipper to prevent bug problems, put struts into the feet of it for ventilation that tie out with small 0.1oz stakes and masons line to add ventilation, and added a beak to the foot box that stakes out so I can use the netted ventilation window at the bottom. The rest of it just lays on me but I find if I just prop up the inside with a stick or tie an inflated platy bottle around my waste it stays off my sleeping bag pretty good, again promoting ventilation. I wear the OR bug net w/ring in it over my tilly hat to prevent the netting from laying on my face. I use a sleeping BAG, not quilt because quilts don't work for everyone believe it or not.

Here I am happy as a whistle with my multiple use gear. I just don't use the bivy unless condensation becomes a lesser worry than a poorly pitched sight or nasty nasty storm. This is the thing about bivy sacks. People are supposed to use them as a secondary shelter and I see folks around here going to them as primary. We might as well make our quilts out of thin silk if this is the case. Quilts and bags are made to stand alone in near direct rain conditions for sustained periods of a couple hours. There is no reason to wear that bivy if you aren't getting hit with rain drops imo. Even my super cheapo marmot down bag (under $180) can resist dew and spin drift/condensation for hours and hours on end w/out making me miserable. Sometimes I zip my wind shirt around my foot box to prevent wetting out or throw up an umbrella, scraps of fallen brush. my backpack pad/sleeping pad… or whatever I can find. I mean its all about improvising with a minimalist tarp and conditional use of a bivy for safety concerns to me. Eventually you learn how to pitch the tarp, what direction to face it, and where to pitch it. Once this happens a tiny tarp and wind shirt can keep you dry in anything you can encounter in 48 states.

Tents have their place too. My favorite shelter for rainy rainy days is goretex. Goretex is considered a DON'T around here but I feel differently when I'm wearing it the entire time. My goretex bivy w/pole and stakes barely weighs over 20oz and keeps me 100% dry no matter what. If it is raining more than 2 hours a night I don't see the point in going light. Its just miserable.

The same goes for tents and bugs. My tarptent is great with the bugs, less experienced friends that go occasionally with me, and for the ladies. Bugs just aren't tolerable to me at elevated levels and on any level what so ever to my friends/girl friends. There is no point in them suffering because their packs are still around 12lbs base weight with tents and a gallon of bug spray. It is nice to have a tent for extended trips with friends too because they may be tired or simply not want to deal with the bugs all the time, again a retreat for the less experienced outdoors man at any time of day is good to have. I've tried to set my tarp up for people in these situations and it does more harm than good imo. Morale is important! We are out there to have a good time after all.

My dogs are another example of this. My shepherd doesn't care how thick the bugs are its of no concern to him, for some reason he is invisible to biting flys. My shephered/border collie mix is another story! Every black/horse fly in a 5 mile radius will find her and be out for blood. She can't even go on some trips with me, but when she does go I make sure to take the tarp tent for her.

If you want to save the ultimate in weight, get a poncho tarp. This will weigh something like 16oz total for rain gear and shelter. I enjoy leaving my rain gear at home and using the poncho tarp sometimes, other time more harm than help. I'm stubborn about it though and love the feeling of shedding 2lbs so I understand where some people are coming from around here with the one solution fits all ideal. Just keep in mind that it isn't that way for everyone and this is why there are so many options out there.

I also treat my bags with car wax before I head out. This modern car wax w/polymer blah blah blah technology is a life saver. It prevents UV damage and works 10x better than any fabric sealant I use (except for the expensive sail sprays at the boat shop). I've had good luck with meguiar's, be sure to use the stuff that IS NOT A POLISH too. In fact, just don't do this. I ruined a lot of stuff figuring it out. Go to the boat shop and buy the sail stuff its safe on nylon. People that complain about their modern nylon shelled bags wetting out either need to a.) learn to maintain them or b.) buy a new one every year.

The golite poncho tarp w/bivy or the SMD poncho tarp w/out bivy are both great options. Both need assistance from an umbrella or wind shirt from time to time but nothing you can't handle with a little practice.

So, in short. Tent for bugs, goretex bivy for constant rain, tarp for everything else, poncho tarp for when I am stubborn.

PostedMar 1, 2011 at 9:54 am

Let’s see if I can add all this up:

The Whelan isn’t as wind-worthy as I hoped.

A properly low-slung tarp, light ground cloth, and possibly simple bug net is very wind-worthy. (There is another thread around here showing such a setup)

The adventure medical kits bivy looks like a must-have for BWCA. One dunk in that cold water even in August is dangerous. Or on a solo hike in case everything just goes wrong.

Most of the time a small solo UL tent w/trekking poles is convenient and bug-free.
Carry a tarp for a lean-to luxury item if the hike permits.

Nick Gatel BPL Member
PostedMar 1, 2011 at 11:00 pm

I have been using a plain tarp for decades. I have tried many other options, and just keep going back to a larger tarp (no bivy needed). Currently I am using a cuben Nano Tarp kit and a GG polycro ground sheet. Total weight is around 8 oz. Add 6.3 oz for my Marmott Essence jacket if you want to consider a poncho/tarp option that can require a bivy, then my total with rain gear is less than 15 oz. Bugs not a problem for me, but nests are light.

BTW, great information from Ron.

James holden BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 3:12 am

note that you can put the windshirt and rain jackets at either end of your quilt/bag … and get quite a bit of the splash coverage of a bivy …

youll be carrying them anyways …

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 7:39 am

To reduce rain splash or wind blown rain, put some branches just in from the rain drip line.

You could call this bushcraft

Ron Bell / MLD BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 7:32 pm

Re: Does tarp + bivy actually save all that much over a tent?

This is a question that comes up on forums from time to to time. Usually I don't comment too often since the question is very very broad. But it can be a lot of dialectic fun and sometimes enlightening to explore.
From what I can tell from the many threads and discussions over the years this is the Truth to that OP question:
1: Yes, some Tarps + some Bivys do save weight over some Tents!
2: No, some Tarps + some Bivys do not save weight over some Tents!

I am so confused…

The next Question that comes up is about Bivy Condensation.
It seems some people always experience condensation in all bivys and others never. There is also a strong positive correlation to less condensation for the folks who use bivy's in low humidity…hummm- more study is certainly needed! We need some big charts and graphs for sure.

The next Question is about Tarp Size- Does a large tarp negate the need for a bivy?
Again it seems to vary from one person to another but there does seem to be a general consensus that with a really really giant tarp no bivy is needed but 100+ft of guyline + trees + many stakes are needed and even then it's a crap shoot if the tarp will stay up. On a positive note- very large tarps are also good protection against Zombies.

Another related and piercing question is about Bugs: The Showdown is HERE: Bivy/Tarp Duo Tag Team VS Big Tarp/No Bivy Goliath VS TentBabyYea VS Momma Told YA So. (See related 479 long forum post / dissertation on the definition of a Tent.)
I'm all lost on this one- help me… But what I do know is that Human DNA is only like maybe .012% different from a giant punk rock lovin' scorpion – so what the hell- maybe take your chances.

THANK A HIGHER POWER – We are about to be saved and rescued once again by ever new and authoritative information that use the terms Never and/or Always. X File Land? Trust No One!!!

As a crusty old outdoor dude (in-training) I've learned three things:
1: If I go pee at night anywhere near an AT shelter in VA in peak thru hiker season, there is a 50/50 chance I will almost step on a Copperhead.
2: Different types of gear for different experiences – none are inherently good or bad. Yoda quote goes here.
3: Always carry a strong LED headlamp to go pee at night.

jim bailey BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 8:22 pm

"Is this post actually written by Charlie Sheen?"

No, just a guy who has allot of experience making gear for people trying to lighten loads over the years and has a pretty good grip on what people actually need out there.

Mary D BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 8:25 pm

Great, Ron! I got a good laugh out of that one!

I suspect there's no answer to this one except try it out and see! It's supposed to keep pouring in Portland for at least the next week or two, so I'll seam seal my 8×10 Campmor tarp in the garage (my car needs washing anyway, lol) and try it out in the back yard. If my sleeping bag gets wet, so what–it's due for a washing anyway, and I have a nice warm dry bed indoors! I'll have to keep a close watch on the dog when I put him out, though, since I really don't want him curling up on my expensive WM sleeping bag!

PostedMar 2, 2011 at 8:33 pm

Thank you for clearing much of this up Ron Bell.

I might add: I've always never found a bivy and tarp to consistently not be adequate. Providing you don't remember to not pitch it in a carefully selected site, you may or may not be not OK, but will likely not have a little trouble, weather depending, of course. As for convenience versus weight, in this case, a bird in hand may well be worth two in the bush- depending upon your finances.

To some, saving an ounce is saving an ounce, whereas to others saving an ounce is certainly saving an ounce, but it may not be the same ounce we're talking about. Rule 1: Not all ounces are created equal, at least not to all people.

Certainly something to consider, or not, anyway.

Gary Dunckel BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 9:42 pm

I say we lock Ron and Craig in a room together, and you know, see what happens…

Mary D BPL Member
PostedMar 2, 2011 at 10:14 pm

Gary said
"I say we lock Ron and Craig in a room together, and you know, see what happens.."

Please do post the results; we can always use more humor!

Viewing 16 posts - 26 through 41 (of 41 total)
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