Does tarp + bivy actually save all that much over a tent?

with a bivy you dont need as big of a tarp. MLD Superlight bivy at 5.5oz+ cuben fiber mini solo tarp at 3.8oz is 9.3oz. if you use a sleeping bag and a big tarp like a spinntwin you dont need a bivy. also just use cord attached to the bivy and tarp to keep it off your face.

Well Curtis, you have make a fair comparison in order to see the benefits. You can't really use the tarptent sublite as an example, since its made for tyvek, and so its limited from true rainy storm conditions. There's also debate about the weather worthiness of spinnaker fabric (check out thru-hiker.com for details) So lets say you use the sublite sil for comparison, which is weather worthy, and still very lightweight at 24 ounces. Now compare that to the 9.3 oz that Robert just pointed out. Or if you want to go even more extreme, use a poncho tarp, for example, the golite one at 7 ounces. Combine that with the 5.5 oz bivy for a total for 12.5 ounces, AND you get to leave home that 6-8 ounce rain jacket. Def saving a decent amount of weight that way. With a tarp bivy setup, you can easily hit a sub 5lb baseweight…I don't think you can ever achieve that with any tent (other than a hexamid)

Yes but if you are in one of those rare zones where you have bugs and need to add a bug net as well, you are back to square one…
BTW, the Sublite Sil will not be available again this year.
Franco
franco@tarptent.com

"Where is the difference? Or is it simply a difference of religion?"

I have used both and I still like both. The main difference I like in a tarp bivy is in wet weather. When packing up in rain or snow the dry bivy can be loaded inside my dry pack, along with all my other gear, under my wet tarp. The wet tarp is then taken down and stuffed into the outside pocket of my pack as i depart.
When i use a tent at some point regardless of how careful I am the inside gets wet either when setting up or taking down. This is not a fatal flaw as the water can be mopped up with a shamwow.
The other thing I like about my tarp/bivy arrangement is than condensation is rarely a problem. I see it on the tarp and it rolls down to the edge and drips on the bare ground instead of a bathtub floor as with a tent.
Also if Mother Nature has been really unkind and soaked me and my gear I can set up the tarp quickly and climb under it with my pack and sort gear, ring out socks and clothes and do all the messy taskes before deploying my bivy or groundsheet.
The ability to have a separate bug bivy from the shelter is nice when stealth camping in mosquito country as well.
I suppose what I am saying is it can be a difference in weight but at least for me, it is more a difference of "religion" as you put it.

As Franco mentioned, I'm in an area that seems to always have bugs. I'm not sure that Massachusetts or New Hampshire is ever free of the buggers. Black flies in spring and big Mosquitos in summer/fall.

Perhaps I'll open another thread asking how the tarpers in New England deal with bugs.

Fair point on not comparing with the sublite tyvek, but you still have "The One" as a comparable. I chose what I named in comparison because I'm a big guy and have a neoair large 25" wide, therefore can't go with the smallest bivy known to man.

Matt I love the idea of being able to set up the fly without getting the tent and gear wet…

From what I've read on BPL light rain is no problem with a decent tarp but if you add in any wind you risk wetting a down bag, which us my big concern. So you pith the tarp low and then you have the reduced headroom and condensation/drip issues of a traditional shelter.

Or am I missing another important distinction?

Matt Edwards and I see eye to eye on this. +1 for experiences and preferences coinciding.

Its all about flexibility.
A bivy needs no set up and can fit most anywhere. You can use it alone in shelters to protect from bugs/mice and wind blown rain. You can use it alone when the weather is clear and not have to set up anything. You can use it with poncho tarps or big tarps. I have a homemade meteor bivy and a MLD Alpine.
A tarp can give you far more room than any tent. You can cook under it in the rain with your stove safely on the ground, you can walk around with muddy shoes out of the rain. You can set a tarp up over brush and rocks if space is tight. You can set it up for shade or a dry lunch break out of the rain.
Tarp tents lose this flexibility and are a compromise between tents and tarps. In my opinion with UL double wall tents like BIG ANGUS and Big sky tarp tents don't seem to be so attractive anymore. Especially in humid New England. Maybe the very lightest like the Hex make sense if weight is the biggest concern -but otherwise I would go with a double wall, tarp tents had there day when tents where 4-5 lbs but times changed.

"tarp tents had there day when tents where 4-5 lbs but times changed.'

Thanks for that. I'll let Henry know because at the moment he is all busy ramping up production.
Franco

try to buy a big sky tent….

Face it, most men are nudists at heart and are perfectly fine flashing all to the world outside a tarp or under it. Women on the other hand are not. So, any hopeful practical male who actually wants company on any of their trips and to share said experiences, buys the tarptent from Henry Shires while all the lonewolfs who can't persuade their significant other to go along are perfectly happy with a tarp/bivy.

Yea, I have seen a few lone women hikers, but I can remember them on one hand and most of them brought tents. I know many guys on the other hand who bring tarps and bivies.

No.
Hiking the ADK's in spring and summer is hiking through bugs. Overall, you save no weight between the two pieces. You need extra room under a tarp to cook/boil water.

It rains a bit most nights, well…heavy dew and misty, spring and fall. I usually figure on wet conditions every morning. Some dry stuff in summer…then you get lots of mosquitoes, or punkies(noseeums.) You must have a roof of some sort on most trips.

Bugs are bad May and June. Blackflies can be a terror. Mixed with mosquitoes, your only choice is to keep moving. July and August are Deer flies and mosquitoes. Not as bad, but they have been known to be out at 55F. September is iffy. Overall, you need a good bug screen and an effective bug avoidance technique.

A tarp/tent sounds ideal, but it is really too small for anything 'cept sleeping in. You have a hard time cooking in this type of shelter. They are not real popular in the ADK's. A tarp and 2 person screen tent or solo bivy works well.

1) Cooking, small fire for cold temps (40's and 50's are the norm at night.) I use a 1lb tarp for most of this. Setting up a shorter lean-to with downed branches, about 5' high, 10×10 for two people, works well.
2) A bivy, with screening, will let you sleep. This is often tucked in the back of the lean-to. With 2, I bring a bug tent. This is also a pound. (Bivy is a bit less, 9oz.) Keeps us comfortable, even in black fly season. Later in September(after school starts), October and November, I can just drop the bug tent…same for between April and May.

Anyway, a small tent can be made to work in the ADK's. But, the tarp and bug tent are way more flexible. Simply dropping the bug tent gives the same dry sitting area as a bivy. Easy to cook under and keep a small fire going if you need one. It helps to collect the heat and reflect it back to you, too. Not something you can do with a tent.

Getting back to weight, no. It really doesn't save any weight. 2lb + stakes and guylines will bring the weight to 36oz. Lighter tents can be found.

To me, my HMG Echo I shelter represents sort of a middle ground between a Tarp+Bivy combo and a tent. The Echo I could be described as a tarp + oversized bivy + optional vestibule tarp. You get many of the advantages of a Tarp+Bivy (ie. you can set up the tarp first and take it down last) plus you get a bit more living space like a tent. Weight is similar. I like this 'system' because it's so flexible that you can do pretty much anything with it.

I agree with Brian that a big benefit of tarps over tents is flexibility. If my only backpacking shelter is a 19-oz. tent, then every time I go out, I'm taking a 19-oz. tent with me. But if I have a tarp/bivy/bug net, then I can mix and match depending on the conditions.

I've done trips with only my bivy, only my tarp, or all 3. The trips where I just carry the tarp are great because my entire shelter weight is less than 6 ounces, and the volume needed for my shelter is close to nil. If I had a tent, I'd always be stuck with the tent regardless of conditions.

Oh, and the total weight of my tarp + bivy + bug net is 17 ounces, so it's not as if I'm carrying a ton of weight even if I have everything.

"try to buy a big sky tent…."

I just bought one and would highly recommend it.

I probably might have considered tarp + bug net and/or bivy as well except that I'm trying to introduce some friends to backpacking, and a traditional tent makes that a bit easier for them. …you know, a tent will keep the bears out whereas a tarp doesn't protect you from bears.

"But if I have a tarp/bivy/bug net, then I can mix and match depending on the conditions."

That's assuming conditions can be predicted confidently… something not usually possible in the mountains :-)

Oh, and I love to camp with a tarp and/or a bivy, and I faced some "nasty weather" with a Vapr Bivy… But sometimes, after a hard day, you appreciate the peace of a GOOD (and lightweight) tent.

Cheers.

Brian, I hike and camp alone and with others,either way I always use a tarp.I had The One tent but never ended up using and I sold it, I like the versatility of tarping.I recently brought a male friend camping and lent him a tarp,he had only ever used a tent before but he really liked it.

Temps are typically in the 20-50F at night when I'm backpacking so I like the warmest shelter possible and I want as little air movement as possible within the shelter. I sweat a lot and even the slightest breeze is uncomfortable for me when I'm damp. So far, for me, that means a double wall tent with solid fabric instead of mosquito netting for the inner tent.

I want to know that I can set up the tent and raise the inner temps to the 60-70F range within a few mintues by moving around, changing clothes, etc.

Knowing that I have a warm tent in my pack allows me to carry a lighter sleeping bag and less clothing so I save some weight in these areas to "pay" for the extra weight of the tent.

My wife feels the same so we are in sync on at least one issue in our relationship.

We must be in the minority, however, because the very lightweight tent market has pretty much abandoned solid fabric inner tents.

I can't help thinking of all the evenings and nights I've spent out backpacking in the rain. While a good tent gives you that cozy, "I'm fully protected from the elements" feel, a tarp lets you hang out, enjoy the beauty of the rain, cook dinner and congregate with others, all while staying dry.

I've also loved my little trail naps when solo backpacking in the summer when a fifteen minute t-storm rolls in. Set the tarp up in a few seconds, take a quick snooze to the falling of the rain, and then pack it back up and continue hiking, dry as can be.

The flexibility of a tarp is terrific, and if you have a little bivy for bug protection, spray, and what-not, it really is a light combination. I suspect that if more tent people had a lightweight tarp to play with and experiment, they'd find some of the same joy in it.

That has been my exact issue! I'd love to switch to a tarp since I find tents (even my single wall) claustrophobic. There's no point in switching, though, unless I can save weight over my current 26-ounce shelter.

My backpacking buddy is an 80-lb. mostly Labrador retriever. I won't go out without him, and I will not take him without a bug-free shelter for him as well as for me. By the time I add up a tarp big enough for the two of us, a bivy for me, a bug net big enough for both of us, a polycro ground sheet (to keep my gear and the dog's pad off muddy ground, and I don't want a muddy bivy, either), it adds up to more weight than my 25.6 ounce Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic. That weight doesn't include stakes–6 for the Squall Classic, at least 10 for a GG SpinnTwinn. Cuben fiber, which would make the tarp combo lighter, is way beyond my budget.

I was interested to see a recent comment from Ron Moak on the PCT-L that with a larger tarp a bivy is not needed and that the larger tarp is less additional weight than a bivy.
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/2011-February/046232.html

If I could eliminate the bivy, then the tarp combo would be significantly lighter than the tent. (The cost would be more affordable, too!) The question is, with a double-size tarp (which I need anyway with the dog) like the GG SpinnTwinn, would I be able to keep my sleeping bag dry in nasty weather (we're talking Cascades and Rockies here) without a bivy?

More comments would be greatly appreciated!

"I was interested to see a recent comment from Ron Moak on the PCT-L that with a larger tarp a bivy is not needed and that the larger tarp is less additional weight than a bivy.
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/pct-l/2011-February/046232.html"

Nice find. And true. Except the issue with bugs. Man I hate bugs.

I’ve added a new section to our website under “Support” called “For What It’s Worth”. It’s a repository to place some vaguely useful thoughts on different aspects of backpacking from time to time.

You can find a copy of that post at A Few Thoughts on Bivies.

Ron

Thanks, Ron!

I'm looking forward to reading more comments here! Ultimately, I'll end up pitching my 8×10 foot flat tarp (bought for other purposes) in the back yard during bad weather (I really should do that today, but the tarp hasn't been seam-sealed and I also need to clean up the dog poo) to see what happens!

[Our wonderful profanity filter–"poo" is acceptable but not with a "p" at the end!]

Daryl, have a look across the atlantic at tents like the Vaude Power Lizard or Terra Nova Laser.

James,

Yes, those tents are more to my liking. Most US tents are too big and too airy for me.

I'm Scottish and Irish. Maybe this is a heredity thing? Some people mention claustophbia (sp?). I seek enclosed spaces without views.

Go figure.

Daryl