Simmerlite Weight vs. WindPro Weight

Hi Bob

MAPP gas is another hydrocarbon which burns, just like propane. However, life is never simple.

The original MAPP gas seems to have died when the only factory making it shut. But other companies are making variants of it, including Benzomatic. So the first complication is one has to ask 'which version'?

Ignoring that and looking at Benzomatic MAPP: the gas boils at a slightly lower temperature than propane and burns considerably hotter. It should be possible to substitute MAPP for propane in a propane bottle, but I would NOT recommend putting it into a standard butane/propane canister. The pressure would be too high for safety.

Could one use it with a standard canister stove? I would imagine so, but it is highly likely that you would need to change the jet and possibly tweak the air inlets. You also need to do that with propane, so nothing new there.

Can one connect a Benzomatic MAPP cylinder to a canister stove? Not without a custom adapter. Granted, for some of us that is simply an hour in the workshop … But if the Benzomatic brand also offers a screw-thread fitting … don't know what is available.

Can one readily buy cylinders of the MAPP gas in small towns at the start of walks? I suspect the answer there may be no, unless the town has a large hardware store.

Final question: would we benefit from the switch to MAPP? You might boil your water 30 seconds faster, but simmering might be much more difficult. Since a small upright canister stove on a conventional canister can pump out 3 kW, I am having some trouble seeing a sufficient benefit.

Cheers

Well, Roger, it certainly seems like the possibilities are there to be investigated by one of our leading thermodynamicists.

Meanwhile, I am toying around with a tiny butane burner.

–B.G.–

I have seen those. The air holes look far too small to me. How long is the flame?

Cheers

My maximum flame length is about three inches, pencil-fine.

It might be OK if I had a miniature mug to heat and if I could spread the flame.

–B.G.–

Paul McLaughlin wrote: > I have done a similar, although perhaps more detailed (in the sense of trying to insert the question of relative fuel usages), comparison of these two stoves myself, in trying to decide whether to switch from white gas to canister for my snow camping needs. And my conclusion is that the elephant in the room is cooking style. And by that I mean whether you normally light the stove once in the morning and once in the evening (as I do), or you normally light and relight a number of times for each meal. In the first case, if using a white gas stove, you amortize the priming fuel over a longer burn, minimizing the percentage of fuel you use to prime. In the second case, you may have to reprime several times, increasing the percentage of fuel used to prime. If you also like to brew up in the middle of the day, then you use even more. In other words, how many times per day you light the stove makes a difference in how much white gas you use, even if the actual burning time is the same. But with a canister stove this is not the case. So for the light-it-once group, white gas will be closer to canister in terms of fuel usage, while for the relighters, white gas will be further behind. Given the fact that propane/butane mixes have more BTU's per weight, the canister has an inherent advantage, but that can be offset by the fact that the fuel container may be heavier.
Case in point – my smaller Sigg fuel bottle weighs only 5 oz with the MSR pump in it. full, it weighs 17 oz. that is 12 oz fuel by weight in a container weighing about 3 oz. I can carry additional gas in a plastic bottle weighing less than 1/2 oz. at this rate the fuel container weight for 24 oz of white gas is only 3.5 oz or so, while for 24 oz of canister gas it would be around 15 oz. So the white gas stove can afford to be less fuel efficient, up to a point.

My general conclusion has been that for me, given my cooking style, there would be very little difference in carried weight with either stove for a weeklong snow camping trip. And I also ran similar numbers for a coleman extreme stove, coming to essentially the same conclusion. But for others whose cooking style is different, the conclusion would be different – although the difference will still be pretty small, and so I would suggest that the other factors – ease of use, safety, extreme cold weather performance, personal preference, which stove you already have – should be the deciding factors

Paul,

Thank you very much. That is one of the best write ups I've seen on the issue.

One of the things I was trying to take a look at in my comparison was the issue of fuel container weight. Sometimes I think the (steel) containers that we buy gas in aren't properly taken into account.

In terms of cutting weight, I have a very small 275 ml aluminum Sigg fuel bottle. I can use that plus a plastic PET bottle as a fuel carrier, and have about a liter of white gasoline in about 3 oz of container. That's fairly significant considering that I'd have more than triple that amount of container weight with gas.

I think white gasoline can have some advantages when we start having to take more than one eight ounce canister of gas.

And of course, there are other factors out there besides weight. Not wanting to burn one's tent down can reasonably be called a legitimate factor! lol.

I appreciate all of the very thought provoking responses.

HJ

Roger Caffin wrote: > Before heading back to the Simmerlite, just check the power ratings of each one. I can't remember the exact figures for these two stoves, but typically they are as follows:

Canister stove: 3 kW
White gas stove: 2.5 kW

Which one has more power?

Roger, are you suggesting then that gas really will make a difference in practical terms when doing something like melting snow?

In practice, I haven't noticed that much difference between liquid petroleum fuels and gas petroleum fuels. To me burner design, use of windscreen, type of pot, etc. seem to be more salient. Honestly, I haven't noticed even with something like a Simmerlite vs. a Windpro — where the stoves are virtually identical except for the fuel — that the gas makes a practical difference over liquid fuel.

HJ

"Not wanting to burn one's tent down can reasonably be called a legitimate factor! lol."

Jim, that is just a training issue. I've gone for nine or ten days with doing all of my white gas stove lighting and cooking in the vestibule of a tent. Since the fireball size is controllable if you are paying very close attention during priming, but since there can still be a momentary fireball, a few square feet of aluminum foil can catch the fireball. Just don't expect to have any hair left on the back of your right hand.

–B.G.–

Stuart Robb wrote: > These are a standard canister used for small blow torches, you get then in a hardware store. There are many different brands, even Camping Gaz (their only threaded canister). The Bernzomatic ones are 35% propane.
Here, they are cheaper than camping canisters: 175g costs less than a 100g canister and less per gram than a 220g canister.

My local hardware store has some Bernzonmatic gas products (MAPP gas, oxygen, and propane), but not those little canisters. Those would be nice to have, particularly if cheaper. I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

Do you have any idea as to the weight of the empty canister?

Pretty fascinating stove you've got there.

I recognize the Optimus Crux. What remote stand is that? And I take it you modified the stand in some way to put a pre-heat loop in the fuel line, yes? Looks really good.

HJ

Sure looks like a Monatauk Gnat on a custom tripod.

–B.G.–

Bob Gross wrote: >
"Not wanting to burn one's tent down can reasonably be called a legitimate factor! lol."

Jim, that is just a training issue. I've gone for nine or ten days with doing all of my white gas stove lighting and cooking in the vestibule of a tent. Since the fireball size is controllable if you are paying very close attention during priming, but since there can still be a momentary fireball, a few square feet of aluminum foil can catch the fireball. Just don't expect to have any hair left on the back of your right hand.

–B.G.–

I bought my first stove, an MSR Whisperlite, in 1987. Befoe that I was using dad's old Optimus 8R for backpacking and Thermos 8423 for car camping. I've primed those stoves and lots of modern and classic white gasoline stoves more times than I can even begin to count. I'm pretty good at it, and… I'm still hesitant to prime inside a vestibule. Even when priming with alcohol which is less volatile and a lot easier to control in terms of amount dispensed, I still hesitate to prime inside a vestibule. It's been a long, long time since I've had a fireball, but dang I can see myself coming back to camp with numb hands and tired, and … Well, I'm sure you get my drift.

HJ

Jim, what is the standard method for priming a stove?

Probably leaving the liquid fuel valve turned off, then pumping up the pressure, then slowly turning the liquid fuel valve on… then waiting a bit before lighting it. Many users get impatient, so they pump up the pressure a lot, then slowly turn the valve, then turn it a little more, then a little more… and then they see a spoonful of fuel squirting in there. They light it and they see the fireball.

If you study this very closely, you can estimate the time delay between when you turn the valve and when the first drop of fuel actually leaks out of the burner oriface. It varies from stove to stove. On one particular stove I had, you could almost set your watch by it, and it was 20 seconds if you turned the valve so far, and it was only 10 seconds if you turned it more.

I got to where I would open the fuel valve, count off so many seconds, then close it again. That got an even more controlled dose of fuel moving down the pipe. I got to where I could light it with a tiny flare, and then I had the aluminum foil there between the stove and the tent vestibule fabric. The flare only lasts for a second, and then I would turn the valve on again for continuous burn. We were in a camp very high and exposed where we couldn't afford to burn down half of an expensive tent.

–B.G.–

Jim

The Bernzomatic 175g canisters weigh ~85g when empty, LESS than an empty 100g canister. So, lighter and cheaper than ‘camping’ canisters. There are many other brands, probably just different paint on a standard canister from one factory.

The stove is a Monatauk Gnat on a MYOG stand, first posted here and yes, it does have a preheat loop coming up to the side of the burner. Combined stove + stand = 105g (3.7oz) so when used with the above canister the total weight (190g / 6.7oz plus gas) is similar to a canister top stove and canister.

> My maximum flame length is about three inches, pencil-fine.

Hum …. I would be awfully tempted to enlargen the air holes slowly while measuring flame length!

Cheers

> are you suggesting then that gas really will make a difference in practical terms when doing
> something like melting snow?

Yes (and no). Yes, in that a canister stove is measurably MORE powerful than a white gas stove. I know the white gas stove sounds more powerful … but both manufacturer claims and my measurements say otherwise.

But the other side of the thing is that a smart user never runs any stove flat out. Doing so is grossly inefficient: you lose too much heat up the side of the pot. So the peak power battles really don't count for very much except as headline figures for the spin doctors.

Exception: if you are using a heat exchanger pot with a canister stove you can crank the power up a long way without losing too much efficiency. For a group melting snow for water, a heat exchanger pot can be a good investment sometimes.

Cheers

NM

"I would be awfully tempted to enlargen the air holes slowly while measuring flame length!"

That would be interesting, up to a point. Once I determined that I had gone too far, it would be difficult to reverse course. As it is, it makes a dandy cigar lighter. I had dreams of it brewing up the afternoon tea.

–B.G.–

Basically, I am down to three stoves for camping.
1) Simmerlite: This was purchased primarily to get a replacement pump for the older whisperlite which blew apart. But it ran about the same so I gave the Whisperlite away. This is for base camping. Never tried auto-gas in it.
2) SVEA 123R: General backpacking of 5 nights or more, or, with a partner. Just too efficient to replace with anything else. Self contained, a PET bottle for fuel offsets any weight disadvantage. Can burn auto gas, but this will hurt performance, and, do it out of your tent.
3) Alcohol sideburner: With a wider pot, a "grease" pot this is all that is needed for fastpacking and UL trips of a few nights.

I have tried maybe a hundred different stoves (canisters, wood, and more "exotic" fuels) and almost as many different pots (Ti, SS, Steel) but always go back to one of the above. Mostly, due to fuel costs, I do 30-60 nights camping per year.

I reached identical conclusions regarding canister stoves. The weight between the two types really doesn't matter enough to make it worth it. Rather, I refined my technique for using the equipment I had.

Base camping, it doesn't matter about fuel, compactness and reliability. Any stove will do unless you are on an arctic trip of in the mountains of Nepal. I don't go there. It gets about .5oz per liter of water boiled. At ~9500-10000BTU it really churns out heat.

A SVEA?? Yes, it weighs 1 pound(17oz.) It also includes a cup (2oz.) I regularly get about .3oz per liter, often better. A 12oz drink bottle weighs about 10oz. full of WG… Enough for a week. Compact and reliable, I pay in terms of weight and cooking speed. At ~4500BTU, it is in between Alcohol and the Simmerlite for cook times.

The alcohol stoves are light and slow to heat up water. For a cup or two, they work well. Very light, if I am traveling between point A and point B, these are ideal. Fuel costs are higher than WG, by about double. (At todays prices-2011: $9/gallon for white gas, $14/gallon for SLX at a lower heat density.)

Typically, good canister stoves are more convenient. The set up time is about the same. I prime and burn the SVEA. I have to assemble the stove and burn the canister stoves. Tear down is a bot more complicated, since I need to top off the tank in the SVEA. The SVEA handles wind better. In most cases, I ignore this, since both require a sheltered spot. On occasion I have had the Lindal valves leak. No choice…I leave the canister assembled. But, it has happened several times on different stoves. One was a slow leak that went unnoticed. I now wet my finger over the valve to check it before putting it away. I have to carry a pen to mark it or scratch a mark in the paint. The canisters cook better. I can set the flame to low, go down and catch a fish, and come back to make coffee and supper. Canisters are a pain to carry. Spares are awkward shaped and do not fit into the pouches properly, though 4oz is better than 8oz. They waste space in my pack(having an air space in them) and do not have the same high reliability as the SVEA, but, having a pump mechanism, neither does the Simmerlite.

Basically, it is a matter of personal preference, where you hike, what you do when you get there. For weight between the two, they are so close to the same it doesn't matter. For reliability between the WindPro and Simmerlite, they are about the same. For compactness and ease of packing, the Simmerlite has a slight edge. For cost, the Simmerlite is way ahead. WG is cheap compared with canister gas. For "cool" factor the canisters are newer and more "cool."

Personal preference is what it boils down to. The difference in a 9lb pack base weight for 2-3 nights is always offset by alcohol. For more than that. The base weight goes to 10lb for a week. Most people will not notice any difference between the two stoves…there is basically none. The variables involved get too personal to call. Use what you like. For myself, I like to save a few dollars for the end of trail beers.

"On occasion I have had the Lindal valves leak."

I used to use a Coleman Exponent F1.

Occasionally while using it, it would leak around the stove/canister connection and then flame up. I just blew it out, screwed the stove on a little tighter, and carried on. No big deal except a couple plastic pieces got cosmetically melted a bit.

Then, when it got into the 20s F, overnight, it would slow leak and be empty in the morning.

I got a MSR Pocket Rocket figuring that would be the end of that.

Once, after I uncrewed the stove, the canister slow leaked, so I just left the stove on the canister until it was empty.

What do you mean, the Lindal valves leak?

Last year some 100% Ultrablue brand propane canisters were available at my local ACE hardware store. They were intended for a small torch and have the standard Lindal valve. The higher pressure makes the valve a bit twitchy but otherwise they seem to work fine with my canister stove and primus micro lantern. Yes the cans are tall but you can just bury them halfway in the snow – instant stove stand. Unfortunately, they seem to have disappeared as quickly as they appeared. There were some floating around on the web and even ebay recently but nobody will ship them. So if you happen to live in the right place you might be able to pick some up locally. Just as well 'cause Rodger is sure to be along shortly to take the fun out of it somehow?!

Bob- and continuing with ill-considered ideas, would it be possible to insert that mini pencil torch into the end of an aluminium tube and make an miniature overhead radiant heater for my tent? I could just install a mini stove jack so it vents outside.(sometimes being lazy makes for a lot of work!)

Stuart- nice work on that stove stand!

Ooooh. 100% propane? That's niiiice. lol. Yeah, you'd have to be careful if you turned it up all the way. So, don't turn it up all the way.

I think Hardware store "combing" is now in order. lol.

HJ

David, what is the empty weight and full weight on the Ultrablue Propane?

–B.G.–

Bob

A full canister weighs 12.3 oz and an empty weighs 4.5 oz. The label lists a net weight of 8oz (226g). Bernzomatic was selling the same can as the Bernzomatic Powercell. I suspect the DOT revoked the permit for the can or something. But if somebody wouldn't mine risking a little hard time to mail me a couple cases…?

David

Hmmm. I might be willing to drive a few states over to buy some, and then smuggle them back into California.

Expensive?

–B.G.–

"Once, after I uncrewed the stove, the canister slow leaked, so I just left the stove on the canister until it was empty."

But, the problem was I hadn't noticed it.

Bob- I am pretty sure they are now obsolete as are the torches they came with. I picked a dozen out of the sale bin at the hardware store for 3.99 ea. There seems to be a few prepackaged torch kits around that have a canister along with the torch head. Mostly in wholesale liquidator type sites. I can't image there's much market for a torch kit you can't buy refills for though. Cripe Distributing in Boise ID has a bunch of kits. Now if someone in Boise would just run over there and offer them about 4.00$ ea for a hundred or so….

Here is their ebay sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390051114742&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_922

David