10×10 SilNylon Pyramid Design

[Ben Wortman]

Just to clarify, I do not have any cat curves on the small tent. I used just normal everyday strait sides. To modify it. I basically just measured up 6" on each corner and then made a straight line to the mid side tie out. Then I just re-sewed the hem on the the bottom edge. This allowed me to stake the 4 corners to the ground and then pull out the sides a little and stake them down.

I will say this, for ease of set up the square pyramid is faster to get pitched. It also seems that there is not as much "wasted" space in a square design.

For a more stormproof design and ease of construction, the round pyramid is better. This is because every panel is the same size and shape, and it is much easier to get it to pitch tight to the ground.

I feel a 10×10 square is about right for 2 people and gear. (I have had 2 in there with the wood stove and winter gear before and that is about maxed out)

Let me know if you have any other questions that I can help with and good luck.

[Chris Roane]

Eric: Ben's advice in making a smaller version is probably sound advice. I am learning as I go, and I'm at a spot that even if this one doesn't turn out like I want, the next one surely will turn out much better. A lot of the timing with this type of project depends on how well you know your sewing machine with silnylon and the processes you use in putting it together.

Ben: That is a massive tent! I sure hope the one I am making now can fit 4 guys with gear in the summer.

So last night I connected two of the eight pieces together and made a flat felled seam. I am VERY happy with how this turned out. But it was a rough start. Below are a few notes on what I learned in doing this:

1. I followed Jerry's advice in hand stitching at both ends and then two hand stitches in the middle. However, even doing this the bottom piece kept on dragging and the line was not matching up with the bottom piece. Part of the problem was that I am using navy silnylon. So the permanent marker is very hard to see and I can't see through the fabric unless I put it directly in front of a light (which is why I couldn't tell it was off until I put it at the light). I had to use a seam reaper twice on about 12-24 inches of seam each time. It is worth noting that this part would probably be easier if you got silnylon that wasn't a very dark color.

What I ended up doing after having to seam rip twice, was I used a massive amount of pins. I put the pins on top of the line with and made the sharp tip point towards the sewing machine every 3-4 inches. When the sewing machine got right up to a pin, I pulled out the pin. This turned out much more accurate (there was no sliding after this). I didn't have to seam rip to correct the line after I did this.

2. In Jerry's article, he mentioned cutting the eight pieces 0.5 inches beyond the marked line. I did this, but this ended up making the flat felled seam very difficult to work with. With the help of my wife, I was able to figure out how to use pins perpendicular to the seam that made sewing much easier (so I put in a pin every 4-6 inches so the material held the shape and I just sewed right over the pin). I had to put in a third row of stitching to not have any raw edges sticking out. With that said, once I got the pins in, sewing the two rows of stitches to complete the seam was very simple, because it was easy to follow the line that you are sewing next to.

If I was going to re-do this, I probably would cut the fabric at least 1" from the line to make the flat felled seam go much more smoothly.

On the next piece I am going to try the methods that I think work the best and time how long it takes to do it. If it works well again, on the next piece I will take photos of what I did and start putting together an article that should be a great companion to Jerry's article, but from the perspective of someone who is brand spanking new at MYOG.

At this point I'm very confident in my ability to accurately sew on the pieces. I'm a bit concerned at the accuracy of my cat curve…and if I am off, if the tent will still be usable or not. If it doesn't turn out, than I may go with Ben's suggestion in not going with a cat curve….or figuring out a different method in creating the curve more accurately.

All in all, there are things that are easier and harder with this project….especially when dealing with a cat curve. But I'm hoping that I won't be the only one who will learn from my experience! :) But I will say that the sewing aspect of this project, for someone who just learned how to use his wife's sewing machine, is going better than I thought it might.

[Eric Swab]

Thanks for your insights, I think I will play with some sketches and build one out of plastic sheeting to see how it feels. I was looking at the photo of Ryan Jordans pyramid (from the "24" article) which is 8'3" square but does not mention the height, it almost seems like there is a catenary curve along the bottom as well, but maybe it is just the center tie outs that make it look that way.

I can remember my mom using lots of pins to hold things together when she sewed, will use that method for sure.

Eric

[Jerry Adams]

Just got back from a trip.

Looks like you're figuring things out.

I've used pins some but I don't like them. I think most people probably use pins though.

I have light gray fabric that you can see through easily.

1 inch seam allowance is good too. My wife said that 5/8 inch is typical for clothing patterns.

Seam rippers – unfortunately, they are very useful.

I like to hear other people's ideas. I've figured out a way that works for me but always looking for better ways to do things.

The people at owfinc.com and questoutfitters.com are pretty helpful on the phone. Like the owfinc guy said not to bother with zipper stops, just sew a bunch of stitches.

[Chris Roane]

Last night I stayed up late in putting in five stake loops on the tent…in other words, it is ready to be setup today! I should be able to set it up in a few hours.

I've got high hopes, but very low expectations for this shelter. I'm pretty confident in how my wife and I sewed things together. But based on how the corners of the pyramid turned out, I know our actual measured lines were not the same in all eight pieces of the fabric (which is very obvious in the fact that two out of the four bottom corners did not line up at all).

With that said, I think my wife and I improved on the method described in the article for putting in a zipper. In fact, I am very happy with the zipper. I think using top and bottom zipper stops allows for a much cleaner installation, and I'll share photos and descriptions in what we did to put in the zipper.

It seemed like it took me forever to do the sewing. Yesterday, my wife started helping me with the sewing and she was just as accurate as me, but twice as fast. I would probably say that with creating the cat curve jig and putting everything together up to this point, it probably took a total of 50 hours. If my wife did most of the sewing, she would have probably had it done in 30-35 hours. Also keep in mind that this includes putting a third stitch into all of the seams (except for the bottom), and pinning all of the lines.

Jerry: I'm impressed with how you were able to accurately sew the pieces together with four hand stitches. Maybe I'm not handling the material/sewing machine correctly? Not having to use so many pins for everything would probably knock out 10 or so hours from this project. But it is worth the time if this is what we need to do in coming out with accurately stitched lines.

I'm already very aware with where we messed up on this project, and my mind has started thinking about doing it again in a way that comes up more accurately. I'll post later today with how my current shelter turned out.

[Jerry Adams]

I'm always interested in easier ways to do things.

Like I'm not totally happy with my zipper technique.

Each time I do things it's easier than the last time and it comes out better.

Except when there are occasional regressions.

How I keep the long lengths aligned:

Sewing machine needle starts at one of my hand stitched (or you could use pins) aligned points. I hold the next aligned point in my hand, which is maybe 2 feet of sewing from where it currently is. I then select a point that's maybe 6 inches away from where the needle is currently and align the top and bottom and hold firmly between fingers. My two fingers not only contact the fabric, but each other, so the top and bottom fabric don't slip. Then I sew about 6 inches. Repeat…

Also, it sometimes helps to pull the fabric through from the back side. Keep constant tension. Tightly hold together the top and bottom fabric so they don't slip relative to each other. If the top started to slip a little, then there'de be more tension on it which would tend to negate the slip.

At some point, the tent will be completed but not perfect. Hopefully the imperfections will be unimportant. If at one end, one piece wasn't lined up perfectly, don't worry. Since the silnylon is stretchy it will compensate to some extent. If you don't feel like ripping the seam and doing it again right, when you're hemming the perimeter, you could just cut off the excess and gradually get the hem back in line with what it's supposed to be.

[Chris Roane]

Thanks Jerry for the tips.

So I setup the tent twice yesterday. The time I did it during lunch, it seemed like one side was sagging. When I set it up again later that day, I made the pole higher so the fabric was tighter and it looked a lot better. When I set it up the 2nd time, the wind was very gusty…and it ended up bending my small titanium stakes and the shelter collapsed. There was a lot of flapping going on, and I think when I add the middle tie outs to the other sides, it will prevent some of that. The wind was definitely up there in the most gusty I've seen when I've backpacked.

It actually turned out better than I thought it was going to. In fact, I do think the shelter is very usable. I'm still undecided in whether we are going to create a new one. But I am going to finish this one out (other than the perimeter netting, for now) and do some waterproof testing to see how much it leaks.

I did use the black diamond trekking pole connector and it seemed to work fine. Except it was a hassle to get my trekking poles to the correct lengths. I think I am going to just get a separate center pole.

Does anyone know of other types of collapsible poles you can purchase, other than aluminum (for the center pole)? I'm interested in lighter options.

My plan is to sew in the apex reinforcement and get the remaining tent stake loops in by this weekend. A few brief thoughts at this point:

– The ladder locks that Jerry recommends in the article are awesome.

– I'm curious to know if the third row of stitching in the flat felled seams are really necessary. It would save a lot of time if this row was not needed.

– I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but using a silver colored sharpie for dark silnylon would have been wayyyyyyy easier than what we used. In fact, we could have probably seen the line on the 2nd piece of silnylon when sewing if we did this, and not needed to pin so much.

– In my opinion, I think it would save time and make things more accurate if you made the exact piece you need for all eight sides out of one large pieces of ply wood. I realize that this probably is not the cheap option, and cutting it does require extra work….but this would give you a durable template to trace on the fabric with. And you could make each piece be exactly to spec.

[Ryan W]

Hey Chris,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your project, I'm following it closely as I have a couple pyramid projects of my own planned. I look forward to seeing some pictures and reading your write-up of what you would do differently and any tips you may have for new sewers such as myself. Keep the updates coming!

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, we want pictures!

"- The ladder locks that Jerry recommends in the article are awesome."

to tighten the tent stake loops? Yes, I think these work very good.

"- I'm curious to know if the third row of stitching in the flat felled seams are really necessary. It would save a lot of time if this row was not needed."

no, not necesary.

however, when I do the first two rows, I'm fiddling around trying to keep the two layers from slipping, so I don't think the consistency of the stitches is good. The third row doesn't take very long to do, because you just let the machine feed it through as quickly as possible, and it's more consistent.

The only place I've seen the seam rip out is right at the bottom. The silnylon stretches right at the corner, more than the polyester thread, so the thread breaks. This is really just aesthetic, because the fabric is held together right at the corner by the perimeter hem and the tent stake loop grosgrain. But, you can do a zigzag stitch and then the thread won't break.

"- In my opinion, I think it would save time and make things more accurate if you made the exact piece you need for all eight sides out of one large pieces of ply wood. I realize that this probably is not the cheap option, and cutting it does require extra work….but this would give you a durable template to trace on the fabric with. And you could make each piece be exactly to spec."

I've tried that. Only I used "hard board" – compressed small sized sawdust. One thing is it's so heavy that the fabric can get wrinkled or stretched underneath it. You could have a thiner piece on each of three sides – thick enough so each piece stays straight.

Maybe you should go ahead and use the tent as is. Or at least set it up in the yard for a few days or weeks. See how it stands up to wind and rain (like you said).

Sometimes, I'll move on to a second prototype and then realize that it's pretty much the same as the previous version. You want to get maximum information from the prototype before moving on to the next version.

You could use .625 inch aluminum tubing like I said in the article – kind of heavy but I think it's way strong. I keep thinking about getting .49 inch which weighs half as much and is probably plenty strong.

[Chris Roane]

Today I ordered a few different tent poles.

I ordered both 0.625 and 0.433 aluminum tent poles. When I called quest to see if they thought the 0.433 would be strong enough, she said that they might work but would most likely end up flexing more than the 0.625. I got them both to see which one would work the best. If I can be confident that the 0.433 would be strong enough in high winds and storms, than that will be a great weight savings from the other poles. But I obviously don't want these to fail on a long trip.

I did get the apex and the other tie outs sewed onto the tent. I'll make a note of testing the shelter out this weekend and putting together that write up I keep on talking about.

[drowning in spam]

Come on Chris, stop with the teasing and show us your creation. I'd love to see this thing.

[Chris Roane]

I'm still doing some testing. I'll post photos this weekend. I just want to make sure that what I am putting into the article is accurate information. :)

Jerry: Did you use nylon grossgrain for connecting the ladderlock to the tent? I used 1/2 inch nylon webbing for this, but I couldn't tell what you used in the article. It seems like it holds fine, but I wonder how this will hold up over time (on my shelter).

Also, you mentioned that cutting out a large piece from plywood for the cat jig didn't work because the weight caused wrinkles. What if you did that, but cut out a large piece from the middle? So you would end up with maybe 2-3" of wood for each side (all in one piece), and then you could see if there are any wrinkles in the middle? This sounds really good to me because you are sure to make each piece square, and if you are careful with cutting the wood, everything should be very accurate.

If I'm going to get my wife to help me with the 2nd one, I'll need her to do it in March since we are having our 2nd child in May. I'm going to gather as much data as possible from what we did already before we get started on the next one.

As far as the best quality of 2nd silnylon goes, who would you recommend? I'm leaning towards quest, because they seam to be the most knowledgeable on the phone. But OWF seems to be cheaper. The stuff I got from Noah Lampart looks good, but I can't find much information from how it compares with 2nds from other companies.

[Jerry Adams]

1/2 inch grosgrain or webbing would work equally good to attach ladderlock to tent – grosgrain is negligably lighter weight, they're both way strong

Cut out center of plywood jig – sounds good to me, it would be lighter too which would help. Might be easier to take 3 strips that are each 2 to 3 inches wide and attach them at ends. If the attachments were removeable you could store it easier.

I have arbitrarily used 2ds silnylon from owfinc.com

Just to screw with you:

have you followed the American silnylon thread?

In heavy prolonged rain I have experienced slight misting – the outside of my sleeping bag is slightly damp but it didn't make the bag wet inside at all. After I slept in the bag overnight it was dry.

Maybe the 2ds silnylon has more misting, but the pyramid tent should be more tolerant of more misty silnylon because it has steep walls.

But I don't know how to select less misty silnylon. http://www.extremtextil.de/catalog/index.php is the only supplier I know of that specs waterproofness, and I have no confidence that their spec'd fabric is better than owfinc or quest, or if it is better whether you'de even notice

I would just buy from owfinc or quest

By the way, the owfinc people I have talked to on the phone have been very knowledgeable

I thought you got 25 yards already which should be enough for two tents

If you set your tent up in the yard, put something like a sleeping bag inside, and caught a prolonged heavy rain, you could evaluate whether you thought misting was a problem

I'm not totally dismissing the misting complaint that people have. Occasionally it's noticeable. But I don't think it makes your sleeping bag wet enough to cause insulation loss.

I have got way more wet because I accidentally let the foot of the sleeping bag stick out under the edge of the tent, or slept in what became a puddle, or left the door open and slept too close to it.

[Chris Roane]

I went to Lowes and all of their large boards were 4×8, when I needed one that was 5×8. So I'm scrapping that idea. I think I'm going to talk to my friend who is handy with wood and see if he can help me connect pieces of wood to make the jig.

I should have enough silnylon from the noah lamport order I made to make another one. But I wasn't sure if the quality of those 2nds would match the quality of owfinc. But it does look like it should work fine. So I'll probably just use that to safe money.

I have been keeping somewhat of an eye on the american silnylon thread. I'm honestly not too concerned about it. I'm more concerned about condensation, but I'm hopeful that it will just roll down the side. I do use a down bag, but have had problems only when the bag touches the single wall shelter.

[Jerry Adams]

I think you're right on about the condensation

That's worse than any misting, so the misting is mainly a non-issue

The steep walls and large volume should help

Make sure you can leave the door open for ventilation if it's cold, humid, not windy

And make the center pole higher so there's a bigger gap around the perimeter in high condensation conditions

[Chris Roane]

I just posted an article, with photos of the shelter, on my personal blog.

I do find it interesting that only one of the three corners ended up being way off. I would have thought that if my measurement was off, that I would have more than one corner be off like that.

I did receive the poles I ordered. Unfortunately we had a huge storm come in this weekend, so I haven't been able to test them. But my first impressions are the 0.433" poles are not strong enough to hold the shelter up during a storm. But maybe they allow for more bend than I am thinking?

[Jerry Adams]

Nice looking tent, good job!

That one corner doesn't look too bad – silnylon stretches which makes up fro some errors.

Oh, and try the .433 poles even if they seem too small, see if they hold up in any wind you get there

[Jerry Adams]

Does your machine have a zipper foot – allows you to sew a seam closer to the zipper

Regular foot:

Zipper foot:

[Chris Roane]

Yes, I did use a zipper foot. I got very close on one side, but I could have gotten closer on the other side. Something I'll do on the next one.

It is a usable, but having that corner pitch so low to the ground takes up a lot of usable space.

[Jerry Adams]

When I see a non-straight seam or some other flaw in my gear it always makes me laugh.

Yeah, next time it will be straighter

[Chris Roane]

On Friday afternoon I had my friend come over and cut out some large pieces of would to make the layout of the cat curve. It turned out very well and stable. We traced the shape on the silnylon. The only issue I had noticed was that the gray silnylon that I had just purchased from quest had been folded to fit into a priority mail box….which put creases in the material. This made it difficult to flatten without stretching.

Sewing the material for the 2nd pyramid went very fast, because I wasn't having to constantly pin everything and I didn't have to check to see if the 2nd material line was matching up (since I could now see it through the 1st layer of material). It took about 25-30 hours to put everything together, this time around (which is a lot more reasonable than the 45-50 hours it took last time…and I think the sewing job this time was a lot better).

This time around, I did things a little differently:

– I used guntherman (sp?) heavy weight thread this time. I don't remember where, but I read that for high stress applications like backpacks and tents, this weight was recommended. I discovered that I needed to use a heavier needle when using this thread, and things were a little more finicky. This is probably overkill, but now I know that any strength issues with this tent should not be caused by the thread (I put three rows stitches in all of the seams, except for the bottom hem….which I put two rows of stitching with normal weight gunt. thread).

– I don't know why I missed this last time, but in Jerry's article, he mentions sewing from the top (apex) down for putting things together. At least in my head, it would make sense that if your lines were off, it would be better to have the excess be at the bottom of the tent instead of at the top. This might not be true, though.

– I used navy and gray for the silnylon on this pyramid. This looks a lot better IMO.

When I got to the part in connecting all of the pieces together to make up the shelter, like last time, two of the corners did not line up (they were off by 1/2 of an inch). When I saw this, I immediately thought (oh sh**…not again!). The only thing that I can think of that might have caused this discrepancy was the folded silnylon. But I am not even sure that this would cause the problem I outline below.

I was able to setup the shelter in my backyard yesterday. The bad news is that the same exact corner that appeared to be going closer to the ground with my last pyramid, was doing it in this shelter…just not as sharp of an angle. In fact, in what I saw, this shelter should be much more usable.

After thinking about it, maybe part of the problem is my stake setup. Or maybe my pole is not completely center in the apex? Or could it be the length of the center pole I am using? I also thought maybe the spreadsheet from Jerry's article may not be a good calculation for this size of a pyramid (considering the larger dimensions and taller center pole). The ground is still frozen so it is not the easiest process in setting up the shelter (in fact, I can't get my MSR groundhogs out of the ground….but man are they strong!). So I am hoping to investigate some of these ideas later.

It is supposed to warm up in the next week or so. I will get some more photos of the new shelter, plus of the final cat jig…that I can now re-use for future pyramids of this size.

For this size of shelter, I really like the tent stake loops in the middle of each side, in helping everything stay more taught with high winds.

I did learn that you do not want to setup the shelter where you have no more room in tightening up the corners. Because when the silnylon stretches a little bit, you won't be able to tighten the corners without having to move the stakes.

[Jerry Adams]

Great!

Each time I make something it's a little easier

I like how you're figuring things out rather than just following instructions

I have noticed when I pitch the tent, if the 4 corners aren't on a flat plane, like if 1 corner is higher than the others, then that ridge line won't be taut.

You can compensate by having that corner tent stake loop shorter to compensate

Try intentionally setting up the tent with one corner higher or lower and see what happens

I intentionally move the base of the pole over sometimes to make room, which doesn't seem to make much difference. But then a vector diagram of forces says that there's more force on some ridges than others to compensate.

[Ryan W]

That is great that you cut your build time almost in half while improving the quality of the final product. Thanks for continuing to post with your updates. I'm filing away your hints for when I tackle this project.

[Chris Roane]

I just posted a new blog post with photos: http://chrisroane.blogspot.com/2011/03/pyramid-version-20.html

Final weight (without floor or perimeter netting), that includes the stuff sack, poles, stakes and tent: 2lbs 9.5oz . The pole height is 72.5".

– I'm using the 0.625 poles instead of the 0.433. The 0.433 had way too much bend when I had the tent tight, and it wouldn't take much for this structure to collapse in a storm.

– The zipper this time around was a lot more time consuming than last time. But I think the final result looks better than the last one I made.

– I use five sections of pole so that I could cut the poles down to a length that fits into the stuff sack.

– I'm going to save a few ounces by using Big Sky tent stakes for the middle of the sides…but I haven't received these yet (and I order them about 3 weeks ago….can't get a hold of them). The groundhogs are awesome though. I've been using a cinder block in pounding these in the ground and they are taking the beating! These allow me to get a super tight tent that should withstand any storm.

I'm very satisfied with the tent. The corner that I thought was a little problem when I first setup this tent seems to not be a problem at all now, that I setup the tent more tight. I'm actually curious if this is the case with the 1st tent I setup…which I will find out later.

[Jerry Adams]

That looks really good, all the sides are really taut

Like the two colors – I think Black Diamond has a version like that

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