M50 TopBag Finished

^ Hilarious Thom. I love the honesty of kids. Often my 3 yr. old daughter will say out loud what I'm already thinking but don't have the nerve to say.

Great looking quilt Jamie, and very characteristic of your SUL tendencies. That's electric orange quilt #2 from the new M50, I'm looking forward to seeing Aaron's design when he finishes up.

Thom, I don't know, I am having trouble seeing the carrot:-)

Jamie

Jamie,

How did you determine the 76in length? Is there a rule of thumb to apply to sewn-through baffle quilts?

I am also jealous of these "sub-pound carrots" and I need a summer quilt anyway. Your quilt looks perfect. Time to order some M50!

Jared, I use the same process for about any design decision. After identifying a critical requirement like length I do the following…

1. Research BPL forum/members and BPL articles
2. I study other manufactures
3. I apply my own learnings

So I did #1, just like you…I asked other BPL members about details they used in designs and read the MYOG forum. I also read Roger Caffin's article on quilt/bag design.

As to number #2 I researched multiple websites which typically list quilt lengths. For example JRB uses 78" for quilts (sewn thru and baffled) and recommends them for 5'10" and under. Another example is Tim Marshalls website where he suggests a length = YOUR HEIGHT + 6" for draw cord style quilts. For me this would be 70"+6" = 76". I'd say this is the closest thing to rule of thumb I have found.

For number 3 I have to admit I have a JRB stealth which is 78" long and I have made a 3 season baffled quilt that is also 78-79" long. I really felt like both of those could be several inches shorter and I would be fine.

The final decision was made by also considering how the number of baffles, baffle width, and seam allowance would impact length.

Most folks use baffles between 5-6". I think a sewn thru quilt can work fine with slightly wider baffles. JRB stealth baffles are approx 7.5" wide. So you need a quilt length that will allow for equal sized baffles, at least I prefer equal size.

In the end 6.33" baffles x 12 = 76". I added 3" for the cinch cords (1.5" at each end) so I cut the panels 79" long. The final quilt is really 76" of baffles length plus about 1" for the cord chambers.

I will say I was most worried about this dimension because I wasn't sure how much the sewn baffles would draw up. As long as they are not stuffed to the extreme you won't loose too much in length. When I measure the finsihed quilt without stretching it I get about 72" long so I lost about 3-4" from the sewn baffles drawing up the length. I will say it fits fine and would probably work for some 6' and under.

One more point…if you are using the draw cord method to seal up the end instead of a sewn in footbox like what Matt did you need extra length for the end of the quilt to wrap around you foot. For this reason I believe a sewn in footbox is more effient weight wise, but for a summer quilt I really like to be able to lay the quilt flat. Also in flat mode you can easily wrap it around you in the morning. Just be carefull if you are comparing lengths make sure to compare lengths of similar designs.

Jamie

I am forever impressed with peoples craftsmanship. Both quilts are very impressive. I've done packs and tarps but making a quilt seems like a totally different feat. I suppose you guys wouldn't recommend starting with M50? Do you guys have any trouble with getting the material to feed in your machines? Nanoseeum baffles? I was thinking of using cuben when I finally break down and attempt a quilt.

cuben makes for awesome baffles!!! it is easy to work with being somewhat stiff (until broken in), you can see through it, and it doesn't stretch. I love them!!

-Tim

Wow, both of you did an amazing job on these. Jamie, regarding your quilt, how do you connect the "head" end around your neck? Also, do you have shock cord or something to assist in tucking the long body edges of the quilt around you in Carrot Mode? I'd be interested to see how you have that set up. I really like the design as I too like a flat "blanket" style setup in the warmer months but would want the option to snug it up. Thanks to both of you for charging ahead and sharing your results with the M50.

Matthew, I wouldn't recommend starting with M50. Not because it was hard to work with. It was alittle slippery, but I actually thought it fed pretty good. I had no issues or mistakes from feeding. I don't think I had to redo any stiches, which is a first for me.

The reason I wouldn't recommend it is the cost. Unless you are 100% confident in the design (i.e. using a pattern) and your skills you have to be prepared for your first project to be less than perfect. Also realize that the thru-hiker sleeping bag kit comes with 3 things….5 yds material, some nanoseum, and 2 bags of down. There are no instructions or pattern to follow (you can find basic instructions online).

As far as baffles go, mine were sewn thru on this quilt so I didnt use extra material. But yes the lightest material that will work for baffles that isnt real expensive is nanoseum. It is a bit of a pain to work with because it stretches so easily. This is what I used for my 3 season quilt.

Nathan,
Do I use shock cord underneath in carrot mode? The answer is it depends. For this quilt I did add 4 small grossgrain ties so that I can use a removable shock cord w/mini cord lock to hug the quilt under me. But in the picture I was not using it and it was not in my weight because I shouldn't need it.

I have used a number of quilts…nanatak ghost, golite ultra 20, and JRB stealth, MYOG M90 3 season quilt and I typically find I am fine with all of these without any straps or cords underneath as long as the weather is above freezing. I've been down to 20 degree without straps, but generally add them if I expect below freezing temps.

Since this is a 40 degree bag I don't plan on using straps. I simply tuck the sides under me. I can sleep this way on my back or on my stomach just fine. Not sure about side sleeping since I am not a side sleeper.

As far as the head goes, it is pretty much the same technique for warm weather. I just draw the cords and tuck the edges under my shoulders. I don't use a snap or buckle. This is not true for below freezing temp. If the temp is pressing below 40 and I want a tighter fit around my neck I can tie the cords.

For my M90 3 season quilt I use a small quick lock buckle to attach the quilt at the neckline allowing me to form a more complete seal. I think Matt's quilt works the same way. Matt's quilt can handle much colder temps than my M50 and he has appropriate features to support it.

I will try to add some pics providing details.

Jamie

Here are a few pics.

Loops for optional cords.

Quilt neck, tie cords or just tuck under your shoulders. A colder weather quilt will want a buckle or snap

If I wanted to use cords on underside (adding 0.1 oz to weight)…

Great pics Jamie. I appreciate you taking time to do that. As always, very impressed with your work. I'd like to try and do a summer quilt like that myself sometime. Just bookmarked the thread so I'll have the info. when the time comes. Thanks again.

Jamie,
I've constructed a baffled 3 season quilt, but have contemplated making one that is sewn through. One part that I'm not sure on is if the down is put in first and then the 6.33 inch sewn thru baffles are sewn, or do you sew and then stuff the down? It seems it would be faster if you could put all the down in the bag that is sewn around all the perimeter edges and then sew the baffles. But my concern is if the down would be pulled through the needle holes? Thanks in advance for you help.

Sew first. Add down last so you can keep it evenly distributed.

Jamie,

How are you finishing your edges? are you hemming or tucking? I do a modified hemmed tuck but am looking for a simpler process that still looks better than the big hem on the JRB quilts. The way they do it is the fastest and easiest but it just isn't attractive to me.

-Tim

Tim,

How do you define hemming and tucking? I'm curious about what methods used too. With my underquilt I folded both edges in towards eachother and top-stitched the finished edge. The issue I had with that method is that when binder-clamping each baffle closed before stitching, some down could sneak out. Maybe Jamie did this – how about sizing one piece of fabric wider than the other and folding that edge over like a flat-felled seam?

So this is a simple pic to describe what i mean when i say hemmed or tucked. Tucked is the process of sewing a simple seam in the raw edge then tucking that raw edge down inside the fabric and sewing again, it looks good but is hard to keep even. A simple hem is easy to do and doesn't look bad, but i don't like it (personal preference).

On my hem/tuck method i run a simple hem on the edge turning the raw edges to the inside and i sew 1/8" from the edge. Once done i sew both sides together with the raw edges inside and sew them together along the same 1/8" line. This give the clean appearance of a tucked edge but is easier to keep even and requires no pinning, a major plus for me.

-Tim

P.S.

The things i don't like about my way…

1) 2 lines of stitching are visible
2) only one line of stitching holding the down in. Not a big deal but if by some act of God the stitches came out it will leak down hard and fast. Never heard of this happening but it is possible i guess. However, if something happened that was serious enough to pull the stitches it would probably also tear the fabric which means bad things were already happening and down was already on its way out.

Let me answer Tim's question first then I will come back and add other details (wife will have dinner done soon).

How do I hem?

The diagrams are close, but none are exactly what I do.

First all my panels are equal size so all edges on the 2 panels are flush. They are sewn together with 2 seams. The first seam has "no tucking or rolling" I simple sew them about 1/4" from edge. Then I fold over twice 1/4" and sew right at 3/8" from the edge. I think it looks real clean.

The advantages are I do get 2 lines of stiching which greatly reduces the chance of a failure. The first line of stiching isn't really visible unless you look real hard, but rather it is concealed by the fold (i.e. it resides on the fold or just under it). It is easy to do and makes good looking hem (i.e. no fat JRB hem). It also uses a minimal amount of fabric (1/2" on each edge). By stiching the fabric togther first it is much easier to hem bacause the edges stay lined up.

If pics or diagrams would helpd just let me know.

Tim, I hope this helps as you have been such a help to me.

Thanks, Jamie

i'd love a close up pic of the edge. Once i get to start working on quilt updates i am trying to streamline my processes in every area. I want my processes to be the fastest i can as i am hoping to start stocking an inventory and i want to cut out any wasted time i currently have in my processes. So you are doing a rolled hem, but just a small one and you sew first to keep it lined up. is that basically it?

-Tim

Matt,

When sizing your top bag how did you figure out the balance between minimal size/maximum heat retention and roominess? I have my quilts pretty well dialed in but if i were to make a top bag i am not sure how much insulated area i could get rid of. A cuben topbag with a no-see-um bottom is an intriguing idea to me as it keeps the edges tucked great and allows you to vent by rolling a bit to let new air in and any moisture that does build up can drain out the mesh. A top bag with mesh bottom might weigh a little less than a quilt as you can use less cuben and down but i wonder if the addition of the mesh doesn't just balance out the savings. the bottom could be cuben but then i worry about the loss of venting options. Ideas? comments?

-Tim

Tim:

When I was deciding on dimensions, I basically started with the total dimensions I wanted based on experience with previous sleeping bags: around 60" across the chest, 57" at the hip, and 39-40" at the footbox works well for me. I figured the strip on the bottom shouldn't be more than about 14" at the widest point, so if I strapped a pad to the bottom there would'nt be much (if any) un-insulated gap even if I moved around a bit inside my bag. From there, I basically cut the insulated portion to the overall dimensions I wanted minus the uninsulated strip on the bottom (plus seam allowances, estimated loss of width from loft, etc). This worked out pretty well for me, and of course would be easily changed for people who like really roomy/wide bags (64-65" across the chest, for example).

I like the idea of the no-seeum bottom: I do think that the single layer of fabric is a very efficient way to go both warmth- and weight-wise, and with cuben I think it is a good fit.

Hopefully this was helpful,

Matt

Tim, You have it correct. Here are some pictures. First one shows the seam from the under side of the quilt.

I was guessing at the seam distances but it looks like I was close. After measuring though my hem is 3/8" with the second stich at 1/4" from edge. I'm fairly certain the original seam is also 1/4" from the flat edges. I use the first sewn seam as a guide for folding over them hem. I fold it just slightly beyond the first seam. Then I fold it again. It looks like the resulting hem is right at 3/8". Hope this makes sense.

Here are some more pics….

This pic shows the hidden seam by folding back the hem. The "I" is the first seam, the "II" is the final hem seam.

This picture shows the seam from the top side.

For Michael and Nathan here are the basic steps I follow. For a starter quilt this is a great project that should yield good results. If you have already done a baffled quilt this one will be a breeze.

1. Determine panel size, I started with a 52" by 79" inch rectangle drawn with a sharpy on the first panel. Calculate the diagonal and measure it to confirm you have a perfect rectangle (before drawing with sharpie). In my case it was 94.578 (pathagoreum theorum). With all measurements and lines measure twice and cut once.
2. Draw the taper. since I was going from 52 to 38 I needed the quilt to come in 6" on both sides at the bottom. I started the taper 1/3 from the top.
3. Cut out the first panel.
4. layout the remaining fabric (dull side down) and place the first panel on top, dull side up (i.e. 2 shiny sides should be on inside, this is how they will be sewn together).
5. Mark all the corners (6 for a taper like mine) then connect with a straight edge (ie. draw lines with sharpie).
6. Cut out the second panel and flame sear all edges (optional).
7. Sew the 2 panels together, shiny sides to the inside, dull sides out. The seam should be 1/4" from the edge. ONLY sew the top and bottom edges (short edges) and one of the long edges. The 4th edge is left unsewn because this is where the down will be inserted.
8. Lay the sewn panels down flat and mark the center baffle with CHALK (not a sharpy). Simply measure half way down or 39.5" from both the top and bottom. Pin the layers together and then sew on the chalk line.
9. Starting from the center layout the top half baffles with chalk (each 6.3333" apart). The last baffle line will be slightly farther from the top edge. This is because we will hem the cord chamber bringing the width back to 6.333". Pin all baffle lines thru both layers of fabric and sew the top baffles.
10. Repeat step 9 for the bottom half of the baffles
11. Sew a rolled hem on the long side that was already sewn. See above pics.
12. Sew the draw cord chambers by hemming the top and bottom edges as in step 11, but increase the width of the second roll to 5/8" (large enough for the cord). The final seam should be 1/8" from the edge of the inside roll. WARNING! do not complete the last 2" near the opened edge. These need to be sewn after the long open edge is sewn and hemmed.
13. Determine the total ounces of down to use (6 oz in my case) and calculate the percent of volume in each chamber (exact instructions are beyond the scope of this post). Apply the percents to the total then to get ounces per chamber, then convert ounces to grams.
14. Now fill each chamber using the scale (grams) and shop vac method found in another thread. Trust me this method is slow but you loose NO down and make NO mess. Pin each chamber shut as it is filled
15. Sew the final edge closed with a 1/4" seam
16. Roll the final long edge and hem it just like the other long edge.
17. Now finish sewing the draw cord chamber (the last 2" left previously unfinished)
18. Install grip tease (draw cord) in the chamber by attaching a small safety pin to the cord and pushing it through the chamber. Add 4 cord locks. Optionally secure the draw cord in the middle by sewing back and forth 1/2" a couple of times through the chamber and draw cord (in middle of chamber).
19. Sew 18" of snag free velcro (omni tape) to the edges of the quilt at the footbox. I do a single seam all the way around the edge of the velcro. Joanne's Fabric sells it in 36" length (expensive but good stuff).
20. If you want under straps attach small grossgrain loops, see previous pics. Also if you want a tight fit around the neck you can add a snap to the top corners or use a plastic watch buckle and grossgrain.

That's it. To form the footbox, velcro the edges together and cinch the draw cord together.

M50 is expensive, M90 is also a great fabric (adds about 2 oz, but cheaper), uncoated ripstop can also be used (probably adds another 1-2 oz over M90, much much cheaper).

Hope this helps.

Jamie

PS here is a pic showing the down insertion step….

Here's some very nice 1.1oz Olive RS seconds that I recommend using for your first quilt projects:

http://www.backwoodsdaydreamer.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1434183

It's extremely soft stuff, has a great feel. $3 a yard, and the DWR coating is quite good. The reason it's second quality is due to a couple of very fine gray lines running down the length of it.

$15+shipping will cover your fabric costs for your first effort, and you can still end up with a 17-18oz generously sized 30deg quilt, even for a big guy.

Agree 100% with Javan. Backwoodsdaydreamer is a good source of inexpensive fabric. For a first project you will get a great bag for next to nothing. JRB uses 1.1 uncoated ripstop for their quilts and they are great quilts.

Jamie

Thanks guys

-Tim

Wow Jamie. Thanks so much for the detailed instructions. I can't tell you how nice it is to have people that are so willing to help out. After reading through the steps I think I'm clear on each one. Javan, thanks to you as well for the recommendation on BWDD and starting with the ripstop. Sounds like a smart way to go. I ordered some materials from BWDD for a tarp I made last month and was very happy with their service/product. Looking forward to giving all this a shot. I'm thinking I'll probably try a summer-weight quilt similar to yours Jamie since I'm still currently using a mummy bag for three seasons. I figure I'll try quilting for the first time when the temps are a little more forgiving. Thanks again for all your help fellas.