thermos v jetboil for ski touring

you need to make a decision about weights …. you should always have around 1-2L on you in winter … but any more than that a lightish stove makes a lot more sense … figure on ~8L of melted snow for each 100+g canister with a jetboil … and consider that a jetboil + cansiter = 600g or so

you can see how beyond the first 2L a jetboil makes sense if you have the time to melt snow .. and itll make even more sense with the new lighter jetboils coming out … not to mention on a daytrip give you a survival option

Both are awful heavy.

Cheers

It's funny, but I was trying to decide this myself for a snowshoe day hike near Donner Lake in Northern California this Sunday. Yes the Jetboil is more versatile, but on the other hand, the Thermos is easier. I like coffee with peanut butter/cheese crackers on winter hikes. I'm thinking of trying Vegemite on crackers, as I've seen it in the stores here in Sacramento. Always wanted to try that stuff. In any case, I'm leaning towards the Thermos at this point. Weight is not an important factor for me on a day hike.

> I'm thinking of trying Vegemite on crackers,
Vegemite in America????? Good lord, whatever will they do next?

Spread very thinly at first.

Cheers

andy k as usual has some choice words on the subject actually

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_water_margin

whatever you do, just make sure you have enough hydration … many people actually sweat more i think in winter despite the colder temps as they tend to overdress when moving and not feel it until theyve soaked out their layers

poor hydration in winter leads to coldness which leads to frostbite, and also altitude sickness should you be somewhere where its a concern

for a dayhike of a few hours in winter i usually bring 2-3L+ of water, and a metal container used to store essentials which i can use as a pot wth a fire in case of a boo boo … for a day trip/climb of 15+ hours where there's a decent chance of bivy, i bring 2L plus a jetboil

• One the hill the amount you take depends on the available water supply. If you’re near usable water supplies then you need only take a small bottle or bladder. If you’re in an alpine or winter environment you’ll need to take you’re own water, or melt water on the way. If we round things off and say we need a minimum of .5 L an hour (less then is recommended but it’s a start) then we still need aim to carry 6 litres of water for a short 12 hour day (most alpine and winter days will be more like 17 hours or more). This is not really feasible so balance must be struck. If you go faster with less water you can use that time to stop and melt snow at a brew break – or if you take more, you go slower but then you save on the brew stop! A canister of gas is lighter then several litres of water but that’s all it takes to produce that water out of snow, but melting several litres of water could take an hour. The good thing about water is that it gets lighter and light (plus you can just pour it away or drink more to lighten your load), you can’t do this with a stove and fuel. So a good compromise is to lower intake to a carryable level, aiming to maybe have a higher consumption on the way in when you are less tired, then switching to a low intake when you begin to slow (and so you body uses up less water). On top of this take a small pan and gas stove so you have the ability to stop and brew up if you run out of water.

I do quite a bit of ski touring. I can't imagine stopping in the middle of the day to fire up the JetBoil just so I can have a warm lunch. If you are just out for the day, there are so many great lunch options that don't need to be hot to taste great. Just whip yourself up a few thick sandwiches. Since it's winter, you can bring things that normally need to be refrigerated like cheese, yogurt etc.

If you really must have a hot lunch, then use the thermos so you don't give everyone a chill waiting for you to heat up your lunch. The main issue is here time. It's often darn cold out there and you might be kinda sweaty, so if you stop for a long lunch your entire party could really cool off. You'll be warmer having a quick cold lunch and then carrying on, rather than sitting down for a long hot lunch.

Outside of desert or jungle conditions you can carry most cheese and yogurt items for day outings year round.

Bennies of JetBoil or other stove setup: you have backup emergency gear in winter in case you need hot liquids.
Cons? Weight. Time. Have to desire to set up and do everything.

Carrying a thermos? I have when snowshoeing before. It is handy though heavy – very nice to have a hot soup to warm the soul.

On Vegimite……yeah, that stuff takes a MAJOR learning curve. YUCK is all I can say. Now if we were talkin' Nutella I'd be all in agreement ;-)

I have a small Thermos that weighs only 7 ounces. I would not call that heavy.

–B.G.–

> say we need a minimum of .5 L an hour (less then is recommended but it’s a start) then we still need aim
> to carry 6 litres of water for a short 12 hour day

Can I, in my inimitable blunt Australian way, say WHAT TOTAL RUBBISH? (The profanity filter blocks other words.)

In warm Australian summer I might use 1.5 L for a long day.
In winter I doubt I would use 1.0 L for the day.
This urban myth of 6 – 8 L per day is yet another URBAN MYTH. See Snopes for a run-down.

Cheers

I ability to hike well is greatly reduced if I do not get about 0.3 liters of water per hour. That's when temperatures are in the 20's to 40's and aiming to walk 20 miles during short winter daylight hours. I required more early last year when I was in worse shape. I'm sure if I continue to improve my fitness and lose a LOT of weight, I could cut my water consumption drastically.

IMO going out with a total of 1L of water per day is plain dangerous in winter for higher intensity actvities … ie climbing peaks, snowshoeing hills etc … for daytrips you can get away with it because you can hydrate at the starbucks before hand, and at the pub after … but 1L of water total per day in a cold rockies winter???

your respiratory loss is higher in winter, you piisss more, and a lot of people are likely to sweat more from overdressing

you may feel less thirsty in winter and at altitudes, but make no mistake itll increase yr succeptability to frostbite and altitude sickness …

id like to see any significant climbs done on 1 L per day without heavy hydration before and after the climb

Eric, yes, I agree. 1L is not enough. But, Roger is just making a point. That is all he would BRING. He did not mention coffee/tea/juice in the morning. He did not mention getting back to the pub (or sitting around at camp with tea/cocoa, etc.)I typically carry 40oz, about 1.2L, for High Peaks trips in NY. In Winter, I *might* carry a bit more. But, I don't care to carry water.

I camel up, drink 30oz of coffee in the morning. I boil 32oz for soup when I get back and drink two 10oz cups of cocoa. My total consumption for a 30F day would be about 112oz or <3.5L. Even allowing for 0F temps, I don't think I would go through much more…1/2L, maybe??

I agree, 6-8L per day is TOTAL RUBBISH. I would be freezing a verry important member off if I tried to drink 8L. Hmmm, well think of it as ventilation….

james …

remember that andy K is talking about 12+ hours of continuos climbing … with a 30 lb pack on hard terrain …

mark twight gives a similar figure in Extreme Alpinism … i wouldnt call either of them nonsense …. he states quite clearly that "water equals life" … and i cant disagree

my own experience is a minimum of 3-4 L for a full 12+hours climbing and still i rehydrate at the brew pub or camp …

for lower intensity activities, you wont need as much … but definitely more than 1 L total in a day

Yeah, for extream alpine climbing. I don't do that. Not enough mountains "back east" to bother climbing. I some how doubt that day skiing qualifies as such, though (origonal post.) I think maybe this is getting a bit off topic? That could account for the discrepencies between Roger's, your's and my experience.

im sure theres a difference due to the type and intensity of the output

well i'll just leave it with my last words on the post … i can only say that without sufficient hydration at the end of a day, im not in very good condition for the descent/rappels

in the articles below, there "sip often' … and there's also some staff that carry 2L+ in winter and do a rebrew during the day and more at night, and again in the morning, so likely 5L+ in a full day…

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/winter_water_routine.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00040.html

Roger, I am scratching my head. So are you saying you only drink 1.5 L a day in summer??

You must have camel abilities. If so, great for you. I know that doesn't work for me! I drink at least 4L a day when hiking and I do the same in winter. (Otherwise I come home all nastily dehydrated and with chapped/dry skin thank you very much)

With water it comes down to the person who is ingesting it. Some people only need a little. I wouldn't be telling people to drink less though!

I'm with Roger

I carry 0.5 liter bottle

Drink 2 liters before I start

I can go 10 miles, 4000 feet elevation gain, with 20 pound pack.

If it's very warm I'll find a place to refill half way – drink a liter and continue with full bottle

If there's no opportunity to refill then I would probably carry 1 or 2 liters depending on temperature and strenuousness of hike

I'm closer to Roger's side of the spectrum on this. One to two liters for a day is fine, if you've conditioned your body for this.

I worked as a guide on Mt. Shasta for the two prior seasons. On Summit days, we would wake at around 2am, drank a cup of warm water or cacao, and then climb for 12+ hours. The start of the climb was cold and dark, but when the sun came out, there was no hiding from it. Base camp was 9-10,000' and the summit is 14,179ft (4322m). We stopped about every 60-70 minutes for a very short snack/water break.

Despite working harder than the climbers on my team, I never drank more than a liter of water, regardless of how much extra I carried up. This was normal for guides. The clients usually drank 2 liters and they were dehydrated upon returning to camp, where they would down another 1-2 liters.

TO answer the original question: I would go with the Thermos if you're facing cold or exposed conditions. On Shasta, several guides enjoyed hot beverages from their Thermoses. They couldn't stop for long.

On more mellow day trips, I've had other friends bring out a Jetboil and heat up water for instant soup or a hot drink. It wasn't the fastest lunch break.

> That is all he would BRING. He did not mention coffee/tea/juice in the morning. He did not mention getting back to the pub (or sitting around at camp with tea/cocoa, etc.)

James is right. We do not drink a lot during the day. You simply cannot dehydrate to a significant degree in one day of walking or skiing. You might think you are thirsty, but that is more a matter of conditioning than medical need.

If we want to do a high dry camp somewhere (eg near top of mountain), I will pick up 4 PET bottles of water (5.25 L) sometime after lunch for the TWO of us. That covers any drinks on the way up (could be 1,000 m or 3,300', but more often only half that), all of dinner, clean up, any small drinks in the night, breakfast and morning tea the next day. We would definitely be planning on getting water between morning tea and lunch the next day. We have been doing it that way for years.

How is this possible? The reality is that most people have little or no idea of how much water they really need. They get a dry mouth while walking or climbing, and think that means they are dehydrated. This is not true: they just have a dry mouth. If they were to shut their mouth for a while it would quickly wet out again. The situation has not been helped by the many ridiculous urban myths flying around, or by the vendors of 'hydration systems' for whom the sales of their bladders are rather important.

Let's be very blunt (I am a bit too good at that, I know). If someone is fit and experienced, they will not need a lot of water to maintain a quite satisfactory fluid balance. However, if that person is unfit or over-weight, they are going to feel the exertion a bit more, and that is going to impact on how they breath, sweat and pant. Also, drinking water cools the back of the neck and the spinal cord and neo-cortex, which 'feels' good to the brain.

Many people have no experience in really managing water supplies. If water has always been plentiful, how can one get this experience? It isn't easy. One might ask whether it is even necessary. I am not going to argue about that. I guess it depends on where one walks, how much weight (water) one wants to carry, and how confident one feels. There are no rules here, except Darwin.

Bottom line: to each his own. Enjoy.

Cheers

Thermos. It's a day trip, why fuss with more stuff than necessary.

Ummmmm…..yes dehydration can be a real issue with certain medications and body types. There is NO way I would ever go low on water while I am out – do you know what dehydration does to people on blood pressure medication for example? It dumps your BP into the basement leaving a person at risk of falling/passing out. There are many, many medications that fit people take these days with real risks from dehydration.

YOUR body type doesn't require a lot – that doesn't mean EVERYONE is the SAME as YOU.

If a person isn't peeing or has colored pee there is a real issue there. And it has nothing to do with being "trained" or "in shape".

Last but not least dehydration is one of the fastest routes to bladder and kidney issues.

I am glad you don't suffer from the above things, Roger, but your advice is NOT GOOD. Please for the love of everything if you want to consume less water people you talk to your Doctor!!!! It was my Doctor who clued me in on why I was so light headed in summer on long hot hikes. I was dehydrated! Hence now I always have 2L on me and sip often with a light snack.

"If someone is fit and experienced, they will not need a lot of water to maintain a quite satisfactory fluid balance."

I have to disagree with you here, Roger, at least partially. I would say that a fit person will not need as much water as an unfit person, at a given level of exertion, to maintain a satisfactory fluid balance. As extreme examples, The Western States 100 mountain endurance race requires each competitor to be weighed before the race and again at the 62 mile mark. If they have lost more than a certain percentage of their body weight, they will be pulled from the race. The loss being measured is primarily water. There is no questioning the fitness of anyone in this race, as each has to prequalify by completing a 50 miler in, last time I looked, 10 hours or less. That is not a blazing time, to be sure, but ample evidence of fitness nonetheless. Sorry, I can't remember the body weight percentage off the top of my head; it's been a long time since I paid attention. The Badwater Ultramarathon does not have a comparative weighing requirement, but runners frequently experience dehydration problems, and they are some of the fittest, toughest people around. In both of these races, runners pay a lot of attention to staying hydrated, i.e. they drink a lot, and still occasionally get in trouble due to the exertion required and the environment they are in. Heat in particular has an enormous effect on an exercising individual's water requirement, the amount depending primarily on fitness, and altitude is another major factor. The same can be said about shorter efforts and different activities; the same principles apply.

The Western States race has the periodic weigh-ins. When a competitor arrives at such a checkpoint, they are weighed and the result is compared to the wriststrap marked with the weigh-in from the day before the start. If they are 3% low, then they are temporarily held there until they can drink fluids and get better than that mark. If they are more than 5% low, then they are disqualified. Let's just estimate that a competitor's normal weight is 140 pounds. That 5% low would be 7 pounds, and that is most of a gallon of water low.

So, there is a bit of gamesmanship that happens. The motivation is that they don't want to have to carry any more water than is necessary, because that just slows them down. There are lots of water points along the way, but still, carrying water is a problem. When the weigh-in happens the day before the race, some competitors will have artificially lowered their normal weight by some temporary dehydration or delaying a meal. That just gives them an extra edge against being disqualified prematurely in the middle of the race.

I was crewing for one competitor, and she ran to the checkpoint at Mile 55. The problem was that she had been taking a lot of extra-strength Tylenol for obvious reasons. That much Tylenol with a fair amount of dehydration makes a dangerous situation, and her kidneys shut down. So, she was still trying to drink some water, but it was not passing the kidneys, so it was not urinated. It appeared that the water was in her "weight," but she wasn't getting enough benefit from it. She was passed on weight and tried to continue the run, but she could not. We (the crew) did our best to determine her problem, and when we saw serious blood pressure changes, we knew she had a bad problem, so we took her to the medical officer and she voluntarily withdrew.

On another race, same Tylenol, same kidney failure, and it resulted in a finish, but then it was a trip to the hospital for dialysis.

Backpackers simply don't have those kinds of resources available, so you better drink up instead.

–B.G.–

"id like to see any significant climbs done on 1 L per day without heavy hydration before and after the climb"

I'd like to see one done on 1 L per day period. Your body can only absorb so much water at one time, and the rest will just get pi$$ed away, quite probably taking valuable electrolytes with it and exposing you to the risk of hyponatremia if the exertion goes on long enough. You need to replace water and electrolytes at a rate roughly equal to the rate at which they are being lost due to metabolic processes. The rate varies with exertion, temperature, altitude, fitness, etc. On a shorter effort, you may be able to get away with one liter, depending on the above variables, but I sure wouldn't want to depend on it for a longer, more challenging effort. I've seen too many fit people get in trouble that way down through the years, myself included, in a younger dumber phase of my life.