SoftShell Jacket Suggestions?

In the event that temps are very cold I am not afraid to descend with my puffy coat on. I typically bring the BPL Cocoon Hoody which has a shell of Pertex. If it rips on rock or a tree branch the synthetic insulation remains inside (down will blow all over) so I'm going to stay warm. As with most UL gear some care is required to avoid that situation.

according to polartec's own charts powershield pro is actually less breathable in some ways than normal powershield

just because some outdoor mag dependent on advertising recommends something … doesnt mean its good for yr uses

I'd say that reduced breath-ability for improved wind resistance might actually be a good thing for that fabric. Guess it might depend on how you use it.

greg …

imo the entire point of a softshell is to have good breathability … if it's not that good you might as well get an event jacket

honestly at this point softshells have become more of an around the town fashion wear … which is find if that's what it's marketed as … but of course it isn't, it promoted as the best and latest, greatest thing for the outdoors

i have two artetyx gamma powershield jackets which prove otherwise …you know the one that won multiple "awards"

OTH i look great walking around town in them …

> powershield pro is actually less breathable in some ways than normal powershield

ugh! powershield normal wasn't breathable enough for me. Making it mor weather protective and less breathable is the wrong direction. If you want that type of protection go with an eVENT hardshell.

–mark

Powershield comes in a number of different guises with varying degrees of CFM, therefore varying levels of breathability (it's a huge range, and if my memory serves me right stretches from something like 8cfm to around 30).

Pro and O2 are just at two different ends of the spectrum. The idea being that you might find one shell better suits you and your activities than others. However the branded products haven't been sold with their fabric CFMs stated. As this stands, I can't see how consumers are going to be able to make a judgement about what Powershield products to go for.

A possible disadvantage to Powershield-type laminated soft-shells that might be related to a perception of poor breathability, is that moisture condensing or being wicked into the fleece layer isn't then pulled through to an evaporative surface (as with a denier gradient fleece), but instead reach a PU membrane, albeit a perforated one letting some air through. Whether this actually inhibits moisture transfer out of the garment and in to what degree in varying wind and temperature scenarios would be hard to ascertain.

Thats what my contour was WED when I went to play across the street from MT Hood. 3rd most rain in a 24hr period this year. which is only 1.4 inches, but…

so I was in SW light/ arm warmers thin MB vest and OR Contour. The Contour has served me well until today. The rain picked up a little and we were in a little open area. It was steep enough to hold onto tree branches and waist deep. Slow movin. It was about 30 min out in the open and my butt was soaked. it wasn't sweat either.

I will say though, my buddy Chris weighs in at like 135 and is 6 foot or so and I guess he doesn't put out as much heat because he had a TNF membrane softshell- one of the flight ones (not familiar so…) it has chest vents and he was vented, but he had the hood up. He was warm and dry the whole time.

So what I learned: My Contour is way less water resistant than I thought. Next time out I'm gonna try my old MH Manticore it hard on the shoulders, chest and sleeves- Conduit on the back (thats the only place my Contour was dry- proving I wasn't sweating)

Luckily I had my Frostline and – you called it Eric- I hiked down with it on. I didn't get hot and I had a good bit of drying happen to my clothes underneath due to the heat that I did generate on the downhill. It stopped raining too- which helped to dry

+1 on the Patagonia Ready Mix, my size L is about 14-15 oz. Wife wears it as well (see the double blaze orange on us in my avatar photo). Very breathable and quite durable with extra patches in high wear areas.

Like Sam we built our winter kit on Mark Twight's recommendations:

-Ibex merino L/S Woolies next-to-skin
-Patagonia R1 Hoody mid-layer
-Patagonia Ready Mix Jacket
-Montbell Thermawrap sizes to go over all during rest stops or in camp

In very cold weather, we substitute a Patagonia DAS Parka for the Montbell Thermawrap, and sometimes add either a special edition Patagonia R2 vest over the R1 Hoody, or substitute a special edition Patagonia R2 jacket for the R1 Hoody – this special edition R2 fleece was made with much longer synthetic hairs than the regular R2, and the jacket has only hand pockets and no chest pocket and weighs about 11 ounces in my size L. I could further reduce the weight by cutting out a little excess fabric to tighten the fit. No hood but it's thicker and warmer than the R1 Hoody while still very breathable. Funny that these 2 special edition "mistake" or more kindly "experimental" garments were actually a much better warmth/weight deal than the regular R2 at the time.

I also read good things about the Rab Alpine Pull-On softshell on Mark Verber's website, which weighs only 9 oz. Anyone else try it?

It's an eVent jacket at about 12 oz. I have a similar Montbell hardshell that is a little less breathable but still very breathable that weighs the same, but I prefer the Ready Mix for winter when it's cold enough to snow.

jeff …

the water resistance on a weave softshell, or at least mine, is depedent on the state of the DWR … i always test before i go out if a water beads off with a quick spray on the shower

that said … anything more than a prolonged sprinkle will likely wet out a windshirt or weave softshell jacket…. pants seem to fine for longer

membreane softshells do have better water resistance as they are laminates … but those will wet out … i remember practicing rope work in the middle of a squamish sprinkly/rainy day … after a few hours my dead bird gamma powershield softshell was fairly soaked … note that it was still warm, but it took quite a bit longer to dry than my weave pants

at the end of the day its a tradeoff … windshirts and weave soft shells have higher breathability yet lower weather reistance than membrane ones ..

my view is that if its really raining, on goes the hardshell … i can always take off the hardshell later or just sit out the rain in it … with a membrane softshell however im stuck cant take it off if without giving up wind protection … cant just stand in the rain too long without risking a soaking

i will say however that for some girls membrane softshells can work quite well as they sweat much less than guys …

at the end of the day find what works for you and stick with it … im personally moving more towards a windshirt/light fleece/hardshell with a total weight of 5+7 + 6 = 18 oz …. vs. my old membrane softshell with a weight of 18+ oz … same weight more flexibility …

btw .. do you know which softshell yr friend was using?

Eric, which makes and models are those pieces and what size do you wear? They sound mighty light.

marmot trail wind (still testing, doesnt seem like the most breathable winshirt) … 5 oz
pataguci cap 4 sweater … 7 oz
OR helium … 6 oz

total 18 oz

or ill take

MH chockstone … 14 oz
OR helium … 6 oz

total 20 oz

add a belay jacket on top of course when stopped

all medium

Patagucci, yes indeed, if you buy at full retail. But so many opportunities to buy at 20-25% off from retailers and less from the outlets if you can wait a season or two.

I'm assuming the Cap 4 is made of Polartec Power Dry, which is very good stuff.

Which belay jacket do you use, and is it synthetic or down?

How do you find the OR Helium?

I use a Patagonia Houdini for wind shirt. One of my most used pieces. Tried the Montane Lightspeed a while back side by side – no comparison – it was less breathable and less water resistant and heavier.

belay jackets depend on the situation

for 20F+ i'll use

MB ex light … 5 oz down
dead bird atom lt … 14 oz synth

19 oz belay + rest = 37 oz (not incl pants and base)

for below that i'll bring

MB ex light … 5 oz down
OR chaos … 22 oz synth

27 oz belay + rest = 45 oz (not incl pants and base)

the helium is light and well built … its not the most breathable so you need to be careful about sweating in it … the weight saving though is too much to ignore … it weights 1/5th of my previous dead bid hardshell

cap 4 i believe is a lighter version of the powderdry in the R1

funny enough you can get a lot of patagucci knockoffs for cheaper … EB, MEC, and others …

Eric:

What have you thought of the Atom LT? I like the idea of the more breathable stretch side panels… but I haven't see what it realistically weights, nor how it compares warmth wise to something like the MB ex light? Any observations you would like to share. Seems like it could be an excellent midlayer for active wear in very cold conditions. I need to replace my worn out thermawrap jacket.

–Mark

mark …

i have mixed emotions about the atom lt hoody

on one hand it is
– highly brethable … the fleece side panels breath well … the nylon shells is very breathable
– fits well … i am a perfect dead bird medium
– had good DWR … as good as any windshirt i know off
– has a great easy to use big zipper
– dries fairly quickly

on the other hand it
– uses only 60g/m coreloft … the MB thermawrap BC/parka uses 80 g/m, patagucci nano and EB FA serrano 60g/m primaloft one
– its not very warm … thats a limitation of synthetics … the MB EXL is much warmer
– has a fragile inner fabric … the nylon threads started coming loose … all arteryx said was "oh its fragile"
– is expensive, no worse than patagucci … definately more expensive than MB or EB

it'll works decently well as an active cold weather, though you will sweat into it if yr not careful … i think a fleece under the windshirt would work just as well though for a little weight penalty … sometimes its a toss up on whether i bring the fleece or the atom … they do make a decent belay microparka

they arent bad if you need something that you can wear when semi-active … but i dont feel its anything special … same story IMO for most dead bird gear

mine weights between 13-14oz in medium hoody

thanks eric… sounds like a pass for me. it was tempting because it really fit well.

–mark

man I checked out his jacket. Its hooded, two-tone orange, Summit series (not flight), Apex. So I poked around on Google and came up with:

This is the older Valkyrie and I think that my friend has the orange one. The slanted pockets on the chest are mesh. got it almost brand new at a garage sale for $20- S.o.b. ha

My contour is new so the DWR was in good shape (although it never really beaded water, I should have taken the hint). I've never been wet in it before, obv it just hadn't rained hard enough on me yet…duh!
Guess its a day hiker now.

I'll try my Manticore within a week or two- hopefully it'll be crappy weather so I can do a good test. I've just been hesitant to try hardshells again after wetting them out so bad earlier in life- although now I'm smarter about removing layers, and my TNF MTN jacket c.1992 probably wasn't very breathable anyway. (and 3 jackets to heavy for the southeast-lol)

Mark and Eric, I thought the Atom LT wouldn't be anywhere near as warm as my Montbell Thermawrap Parka, partly because of the Wind Pro with Hardface panels. Hardface is an excellent material for around town or high abrasion uses and holds up very well long term without pilling (it's also great for pet owners in that it doesn't hold animals hairs), but I have found that it is less warm than Wind Pro – I speculate that the Hardface coating decreases the thickness of the insulation.

For example, I have a Wind Pro with Hardface jacket that weighs about 14 oz, and a Wind Pro Micro Fleece Jacket that weighs the same, and the Micro Fleece jacket is much warmer alone and under a shell. The Hardface jacket though always looks more presentable because it never pills.

According to Malden Mills, Hardface doesn't really add any warmth or much wind resistance – that comes from the Wind Pro itself.

Part of this Backcountry review confirmed it for me:
"The atom makes a nice, light layer, but its not much of a cold-weather jacket. Wind flies through every seam. Every breeze sends cold air swirlign around my arms. And the fleece breathes way too much for me. The jacket keeps my back toasty and my head warm while my arms, armpits and shoulders freeze. Its an odd combination. The Atom must be meant for hot blooded people who need to dump lots of heat. The Atom would give them a sweaty back though, but they wouldnt be chilled by it."

When I throw on my insulation layer at rest stops, I want instant warmth. If I need to vent, I open the front zipper. Mine is sized up one size to go over shell and all.

jeff … looks like a valkryie … its polartec windbloc … interesting i havent had much experience with that fabric … it is a laminate and 25oz ! … try washing yr contour with sports wash and putting it in the dryer on low-mod heat .. see if the water beads off after

mark … i guess it depends how much you can get it on sale … i bought it for the same reason, it fit really well.. and the yuppie dead bird name of course … for active use it aint bad …for more passive use a thermawrap parka or a nanopuff or some 60-100g/m primaloft PL1 would be my choice

EJ … i actually had a hard face windpro (you guessed it!) dead bird tau … i used it a decent amount in the summer as it saves me having to bring a windshirt as well on climbs … i cant speak to the warmth compared to non hardface, but it seems warm enough ,,, for the atom i never notice the hardface panels getting colder to tell you the truth … it is less warm than other micro belay parkas … but i think mainly due to the coreloft vs PL1, or in 60g vs 80g vs the MB … i actually wouldnt recommend anything less than 100g/m PL1 for temps near or below freezing if its yr only puffy

I've been playing with the Arcteryx Accelero jacket (8.8oz in medium).
http://arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Jackets/Accelero-Jacket

Doing the blow test between this my Marmot Ion windshirt(0-3 CFM) and Patagonia Ascentionist softshell(5CFM) the Accelero is very air permeable, I'd hazard a guess that it is similar to Pertex Equilibrium (10 CFM).

I've been using it in 15F with a 200 gm/m ls merino wool shirt with no noticable moisture after a 30 min. run. In 30F with a 165gm/m ss merino wool shirt and after a 30 min. run noticed a little moisture on the back.

To compare, usually wear the 200 gm/m ls merino only in 25F+ conditions.
In 25-10F conditions I've used the same ls merino shirt under the Marmot Ion and it is usually wet not only on the back but on the arms as well on the inside.

The only downside is that it has no hood for stormy conditions which I like to have for backpacking/hiking but for running and MTB riding I don't need the hood and is the reason I got this softshell

I may end up with one of those RAB Alpine Pull-Ons because of the hood.

So I continue to be impressed with my Dead Bird Accelero Jacket.

The CS Rep. @ Arcteryx told me that the CFM for this jacket is between 15-20 and if I wanted a solid number he could talk to one of their Tech. Reps.

I've taken this jacket down to -5F with a SS Wool 2 crew, an Ibex Indie Hoody and 100wt fleece vest while snowshoeing with no noticeable moisture. When turning down hill I've added my windshirt and been perfectly comfortable.