Done with WM

[patrick walsh]

Exactly ten washes in ten months is very dif than ten washes in 10 years! I learnt about down with a NF down vest. I think for the most part down is something you should take every precaution in keeping clean as it does not like to be washed. I dont think the brand has anything to do with it!! Over wash it or wash it wrong once and you will know it.

[James S]

This isn't a problem with Western Mountaineering, this is a user error resulting in damage to a product. When you create the defect, you can't blame the manufacturer.

I think you should've reflected on this a little more prior to posting a public slam against WM when you created the problem, continued to make it worse, and still fail to see it as such.

[Aaron Sorensen]

If any washing gets done on my bags it is with a spray bottle of Resolve and a damp rag. If it needs freshened up then it gets a good spray in and out with febreez.

[Lynn Tramper]

Franco said:.

"I have only washed bags in my bathtub and then air dried them.
Takes me two-three days in hot weather or warm and windy.
I have done bags from 550 to 850 (+/_) it has worked well with all of them."

Ditto. Blaming WM makes no sense. Blaming high end/high fill power down makes more sense, but blaming the user makes even more sense. High fill power down, like most UL gear, needs to be taken care of and kept as clean as possible. The down and baffles are very fragile, and frequent washing in commercial washing machines and drying with tennis balls and shoes seems a dodgy practice IMHO. If this is how you need to treat your gear, then get a sleeping bag with higher feather content, and more durable fabrics and baffles, etc…

[Sean Walashek]

Brett, bummer on the bag. I have it in my mind that every washing takes a little of the life out of the feathers, one way or the other. I would add though that you would most likely have this problem with other bags given the same circumstances, especially if in trying all these fixes you might only be exacerbating the problem. I have a summerlight that will be getting a wash soon, its starting to not look as puffy, its spent about 50 nights out, I notice humid nights have a lasting effect on the bag for a trip, however laying it out in the sun it lofts right back up. In the future if you stay using down bags I would try this trick. If you find that the loft is starting to suffer, before washing it, try just throwing it in the dryer, this works for me and keeps the bags looking great. Sometimes i like to do it with my duvet before bed so that I climb under a nice warm fluffy cover. I also hold out on washing my bags until I feel it is necessary.

[Brett Peugh]

My thing about WM more has to do with the fact they they had no way to figure out what is wrong with the bag. The only thing they were able to come up with was that it wasn't dried enough. Then why does it ball up more the more I dry it? They don't have either a washer or dryer at their facility and they were unwilling to wash the bag to get rid of any possible extra detergent or oils if that was the case or for extra drying if the down was still wet. And it took them a month and about 8 calls on my part for it to get to that point. The fact that they don't list their phone number was just another small part of that. I know they try but I was just disappointed in their customer service especially since they had such glowing reviews on here and they charge a good deal for their bags.

And so I errored by washing it 10 times? So then sleeping bags can't be washed 10 times? I had a Marmot bag from 1986 until about 2 years ago with 725 or 775 fill and I washed it each year from all of the scouting stuff that I did. No problems. But maybe it is the higher power down. It really doesn't matter to me what the reason is anymore, I am just trying to figure out what that reason is with certainty.

Actually I had a memory flash and to go back through the records and it was not it that I washed the Caribou 10 times. It started doing it on the second wash before I sent it in. It was the another bag I washed ten times in about two years because it is an old 550 beater bag. Inverted the names. Sorry.

Yes, I don't always wear long johns or a balaclava but it is only a 35F rated bag so I didn't always have the need for it and it never said that I would have to do something like that in order to use the bag on the site.

Anyways, I don't want to be bitching and I will stop now. Thanks for all of the info and hints though so if I ever do have problems in the future I can address them better.

[Lynn Tramper]

"They don't have either a washer or dryer at their facility and they were unwilling to wash the bag to get rid of any possible extra detergent or oils if that was the case or for extra drying if the down was still wet."

That doesn't surprise me as they manufacture new bags. Laundering old bags is not something they claim to do, and in fact most manufacturers I have dealt with won't even look at a repair job unless the item is cleaned before it is sent in.

"I know they try but I was just disappointed in their customer service especially since they had such glowing reviews on here and they charge a good deal for their bags."

They get glowing reviews for the quality of the products they produce, not, as far as I know, for their customer service. I, like most WM owners, have never had a need to test their customer service, so can't comment on it. I would suggest that yours is an unusual situation for whatever reason. I don't think anyone can explain the clumping without seeing exactly what you do/don't do. One thing I always do it to weigh my bag before and after washing. This gives me a good idea as to when it is absolutely 100% dry…that and a good hand washing to make sure the bag is completely washed and thoroughly rinsed, followed by a gentle spin in a washing machine and a line dry. I don't trust a washing machine for the washes and rinses as too much air can get trapped in the bag, causing the wash liquid and rinses missing a lot of the down. But I am really stunned that your bag should need washing that often!! Maybe try some silk pyjamas or a bag liner or something???

[Brett Peugh]

Actually I do what they say to do on the website. Except for they also suggest to take it out every 15 minutes in the dryer and pound it.

[Dave T]

I have a Caribou and Alpinlite, and haven't washed either. No great need to do so yet, even after 250+ nights in the latter. Great bags!

[Russell Adams]

Brett,

Sorry about your poor experience with WM. I've wondered about not listing a phone number on their website as well and have been told it is done on purpose. They prefer questions go thru their dealers.

I have no idea on why your particular problem is happening, but it does seem to well outside of every experience I've every had or heard about with WM! Occasionally lightning does strike, so it is possible you may have gotten a bad batch of down, or somewhere in the washes done something to cause damage.

Either way, my experiences with WM and their products has been outstanding.

[Ken Thompson]

WM phone number is 408 287 8944

[James holden]

Id be willing to bet that a lot of the high fill down used by these bag and coat manufs come from similar sources …. Despite what the marketing flacks claim

if there was a problem with the bag …. More people would have issues

id wash a down bag or coat no more than once every year

You should however dry it when needed

[Andrew Lush]

Brett, you're an overwasher.

[Roger Caffin]

Lyn wrote:
> Of course, I always wear longs to bed, and wash my face an neck before bed if
> not wearing a balaclava, and this keeps it pretty clean.

But then, Lyn is smart.

Cheers
(Yes, we do that too.)

[James Marco]

Yeah, I have a set of night cloths I always use too. Different than regulure hiking cloths.
Anyway, the general concensus seems to be one of:
1) Over washing (mild soap, half or less quantity, only if needed)
2) Possible contamination from comercial washers (detergent.)

On another vein, one thing that was not mentioned was bugs. I have had some pretty nasty bug incursions into my fly tying gear, eating my hackle/wing materiel. If the bag was stored at all damp, this could also be the problem. Spraying with a good insecticide is by far the best for combating those. After a week spray again. After a few days, wash in warm water…in the tub. But, this is permanent damage, too. It happens quite a bit in NY, but we get pretty humid conditions spring, summer(some years) and fall. Anyway, this damage will often result in a lot of loose barbules floating around (like short threads) than easy wind up as little balls after a washing. The bag will also have a disinct "wild" odor from their sheit. You kill all the adults, you kill eggs, and you kill newly hatched ones, soo, timing is pretty critical. I have never had this problem with one of my bags, but it is certainly possible.

(Anyway, assuming you have dried the bag pretty well over the past three or four days.)
To repair the down is probably not feasible. You mentioned it was overfilled by WM. Soo, it should be at least up to factory specs. Spray it with insecticide as outlined, just to be sure about the bugs.

For future use:
1) Use night cloths to keep the bag clean.
2) Wash in a tub, one or twice per year, as needed.
3) Periodically, put it in a dryer with some balls.
4) Keep the down dry, never stored damp, even if it means putting it in the dryer when you get home. (I do that a lot, anyway. It helps a bit with lofting.)
5) Store it loose, as always.

With the overfill installed by WM, you should be happy with the bag. Some experiences with items can leave you with a bad feeling about the manufacturor…look at car owners. I would venture to say you could easily sell the bag here and get a Featherd Friends or similar good bag. Make sure to post about the down damage and the replaced overfill done by WM to be honest with any buyer.

My thoughts only . . .
jdm

[Steven McAllister]

I don't think you can blame WM for your issue.
It is a down( read natural) filed sleeping bag.
If you are having an issue outside of their control and they bent over backwards to make you happy, you can't blame them.

Or do you think they did something to cause the clumps?

A lot of good suggestions/ideas posted in this thread already.
I have had down clumps form in down gear, but they all went away after repeated fluffing when dry and/or the tennis ball dryer trick.

[Brett Peugh]

Once again, I am not blaming WM for the issue. If I am negative at them for anything it is not being able to fix or resolve the issue. They were not even able to resolve issues which they believe the down may have had, i.e. the bag may need to be dried more. They did say the down inside was fine.

And I really don't believe they bent over backwards as I have received much better and faster customer service from Marmot, Patagonia, White Gas Stoves, Antig stoves, Tarptent, etc. Maybe it is bending over backwards for them though.

And thank you for the comments but the repeated ones of 'dry it more' don't help because the more I dry it, the more it starts to ball. These do not feel like wet clumps at all.

But I am going to call around today and see if any of the local places can was a down bag as I know some do comforters.

[Sara C]

It was mentioned, but I don't think anyone has recommended a company that washes bags. I have used Rainy Pass Repair in Seattle a couple times for WM bags because I don't want to spend a weekend at the laundromat. The bags have looked fine when I got them back, even being compressed for a few days. The washing cost plus shipping is more than you would spend doing it yourself, but 12 hours at the laundromat is not my idea of a fun weekend.

[josh wagner]

i think it is odd that on backpackingLIGHT numerous people are suggesting a set of "sleep clothes" be worn. do those of you doing this have a fake "internet" base weight and then carry something different?

sucks brett that you spent so much coin on a bag and it's not working out. oh well. luckily there are numerous other good manufacturers out there…

[James S]

"Actually I do what they say to do on the website. Except for they also suggest to take it out every 15 minutes in the dryer and pound it."

Can't claim to have followed all the directions and be left with a damaged bag, when you didn't follow all the directions. To echo others, it's definitely a bummer – but it's quite clear, more than ever, that the bag was over washed (by your own admittance, 1 wash for every 10 bag nights) and the washing instructions as given by Western Mountaineering weren't followed properly.

[Dave T]

"Actually I had a memory flash and to go back through the records and it was not it that I washed the Caribou 10 times. It started doing it on the second wash before I sent it in. It was the another bag I washed ten times in about two years because it is an old 550 beater bag. Inverted the names. Sorry."

Hidden in a later post of Brett's is the above statement, so it sounds like was maybe only washed twice before the "problem" set in?

I've been planning on using Rainy Pass for my 20 degree Alpinlite, but I haven't got around to sending it in.

[Brad Groves]

It sounds like the bag has been washed, then dried for a few hours… then at some point later, realizing the down was still clumped, the bag went back into the dryer a few hours. Perhaps in another day or two it went back in the dryer again. I have found that this won't fix the problem you're having.

From the time it's soaked, I run it thru the extractor, then into the dryer for uninterrupted, complete drying (along w/the racquet balls). If you don't dry completely, the parts that are still damp will clump. IME, the only way to break those clumps up is to resoak the bag & start over.

If you're having problems w/the WM bag, and you washed the other beater 500 fill bag 8-10 times, then it sounds like you have a problem washing/drying down bags with proper technique. Doesn't sound at all specific to your WM bag, but to all the down bags you've washed… I say that just as a reality check of sorts, not in any way trying to come off snippy or something.

Regarding sleeping clothes, someone commented about not counting things in baseweight. Personally, I don't carry separate sleeping clothes. But I do go to bed in my baselayers, socks, & hat. If it's summer, baselayers would be a 150-ish wool top/t & a pair of boxers. Winter would be longies. But it's the same stuff I wear during the day.

[James Marco]

Nope, sleep cloths are also an emergency base layer. I don't really like to publish weights, because mine changes every trip. I don't know about the other people. It can get very confusing if I publish 8, 11, 13 all for one trip. Why? (Base weight, Pack weight, FSO weight.) Sometimes I will post 17 pounds. Sometimes 11 pounds. Sometimes closer to 50. These are usually overall pack weights, just easier to weigh once I have everything I am going to bring. What I am doing changes. What season is it? Who am I with? How do I feel? Vacation? Peak Bagging? …Gear changes, too …every trip. I try something newwer, drop something old or worn out. I almost always bring long johns, a pair of socks and a pair of under pants…night gear, emergency warmth layer, "In the sheits layer", Bag Liner layer…call it what you will…it is all the same thing. There are a lot of people that use stuff for double duty. Where does it fit in when we talk about it? (Besides the pack, that is ;-) Hmmm, I don't think I even bothered to publish one here….nope. Anyway, that is my take on it.

UL, to me is a philosophy, not a weight. I am not particularly good at it. I STILL carry my SVEA! But, that's another subject. Hmmmm…and, actually, so is this….

I think Brett is straightened out. Without destroying his bag and checking what is happening with the down, I cannot add anything new.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm

[Lynn Tramper]

I state the weight of all clothes carried and worn. I always carry a spare set of clothes to change into at the end of the day, hopefully dry and somewhat cleaner than the set I have been hiking in. I don't think this is an unusual practice even amongst ULers, though I don't claim to be and SULer by any stretch of the imagination. In summer my 'spare' set of clothes are often silk ;)

[Franco Darioli]

It is rather ironical that yesterday after posting my comment i purchased from a member here a Summerlite.
The funny bit is not my tragic gear attraction but that I then washed my relatively clean (IE it was as puffy as it gets just had a bit of used smell…) Highlite .
It is on my clothes line now (spread on top, not hanging…) so I will know in a day or so how it turns out.
BTW, again done in a perfectly clean bathtub using a small dose of pure soap and a few rinses after that.
Franco
Brett, I am sorry you still have balls. Hope they disappear soon.

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