Finalizing other winter gear – feedback appreciated

I think any pole with a joint is alot more vulnerable to damage/breakage than a fixed length pole. I broke a black diamond (no snow basket) that way.

I've been using a Camp XLA 210 axe for "less serious" winter climbing…primarily as a just-in-case arrest tool for crossing steeper fields or climbing moderate slopes- which sounds a lot like what you want. It's only 8-9 oz. It doesn't bite ice that well, but it's not really for technical climbing anyway.
Otherwise I use BD Raven Pro…probably about the same as your Cassin.

I'm surprised that shovel is only 22 oz., it looks like it's a beast. I have a BackCountry Access Traverse, weighing in at 20 oz. I thought it would save you weight. Not sure how much lighter you can go on the shovel…I'd keep it and stay old-school.

Since you're asking, I'd be happy to do a winter trip up San Jacinto or local with you this season… :)

Oh, on the stove, I've always liked going with liquid fuel in winter. I know it's heavier and priming is a pain, etc. etc., but it's nice to be able to keep a stove going for hours for melting snow, hot drinks, food, melting more snow, more hot drinks….and melting more snow without having fuel anxiety. Especially when you're looking at sitting in the dark and cold from 5PM until….
It's a preference thing for me…I think its worth the weight/fuss to not worry and crank out the hot stuff all night.

keep the shovel and the axe … unless you go aluminum on the axe i doubt youd save much weight

the shovel weight around the same as the lighter aluminum models … so keep it if its aluminum …. DO NOT USE A PLASTIC SHOVEL IN AVALANCHE AREAS … lives have likely been lost due to this

http://www.telemarktips.com/TeleNews69.html

"DO NOT USE A PLASTIC SHOVEL IN AVALANCHE AREAS"

What if it is the only shovel available?

I was extricated from avalanche debris one time by somebody with a LifeLink shovel. That has an aluminum shaft and polycarbonate scoop.

–B.G.–

Craig,

Agree on the axe, and what I was looking for.

The shovel weight surprised me. It is aluminum with a light wood handled. I weighed it several times. Actually it is 21.5 oz. Don't think I can do much better, unless I use a Snow Claw, and if I REALLY need a shovel, that probably won't do the job.

On the stove… I have a Dragonfly and a Whisperlite. And have dealt with liquid for many years starting with a Svea 123. After reading several threads and articles here, I am going to give the Windpro a winter test. Who knows, I may go back to liquid.

Yes, lets plan a trip when we get a ton of snow this season. We still need to complete our plan to save the world's social, political, and economic problems :)

San Jacinto is not necessarily the best place either. Just after a big snow, there is no concern about any roads getting there, it is quick to higher elevations, and most people do not go much further than the ranger station. I have also finished our master bedroom remodel, so if needed you could come down after work and sleep here. Plus my wife is an excellent cook, and we could have a good carb-loading session.

"What if it is the only shovel available?

I was extricated from avalanche debris one time by somebody with a LifeLink shovel. That has an aluminum shaft and polycarbonate scoop."

i was once saved from decking by a 2 kn rated micronut … never again

dont bring one in an avalanche area … get an aluminum one … see the link below for multiple examples …

http://www.telemarktips.com/TeleNews69.html

"Avalanche probes formed by screwing together ski poles were too short; only standard probes could reach the deepest victims. Plastic avalanche shovels, Alaskan John Seibert recalls, could barely cut into the compacted snow of the settled slide, and one of the tools even snapped. "There's a difference between the Cool Whip you dig into in a clinic and the cement of a real avalanche," he says. (Seibert says that in the future, he'll only carry a metal shovel; he's also investigating the Avalung, a breathing device that can help skiers survive longer under snow.)""

from the canadian avalache centre …

"Plastic Shovel

Plastic shovels do not perform well in avalanche debris and should be avoided. We strongly recommend a metal blade."

http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/gear/notrecommended

"The shovel weight surprised me. It is aluminum with a light wood handled. I weighed it several times. Actually it is 21.5 oz. Don't think I can do much better, unless I use a Snow Claw, and if I REALLY need a shovel, that probably won't do the job."

if a major purpose is avalanche rescue for the shovel … the wooden handle would be a concern to me …

if its mostly for other uses and not for avalanche rescue … then thats yr decision

I figure the toughest conditions for he Snow Claw would be icy snow right? This spring on a slow day I got restless in the Idyllwild area and went up and cleared a few switchbacks down to the dirt with a Snow Claw and Steve's Suluk46 TiCa axe. The drifts were up to 4 feet deep. It's not the ideal tools for the job, but I was pretty happy considering the combo weighs about 10 ounces.

You guys were quick to post… did it while I was responding to Craig.

Of course we need to use whatever is available at the moment. So Bob's experience was good.

In 3 seasons I go really, really light. I am confident of my skills, and years of experience has allowed me to discard items I had previously carried for years.

I admit that my winter skills are not as good, although I am not inexperienced in winter snow hiking. And I am working to expand my winter outings from what I have done in the past. So I am identifying skill/knowledge/experience/equipment gaps, and working to elevate them. Also, I usually go alone. So I need the proper preparation without being paranoid. When my life might depend on a little extra weight, I am not going to skimp. I am sure that in 5 years my gear will look different.

I have that same axe. I bought it really cheap on ebay. I'm planning on using it for the first time this winter.

are you modifying the windpro at all for winter use (seen a couple of articles of folks modding them some)? will the canister invert or do you have to do something to get it to invert?

I'm thinking windpro as well for winter use

my whisperlite works, but it's definitely a bit of a pain

I need to find a lighter shovel, my Mammut is beast, but at the cost of weight (29 oz)- I'll have to poke around :)

I'd bring a real shovel – the BCA and Volle make the two lightest shovels about 16oz each. Avy debries are very very hard – if you think you need it, then I would say that you need a real one.
That said I've been looking like something like that for making tent platforms mountaineering (when I'm not worried about avy), whats the weight on the shovel?

Ice axe looks good – if your going to replace it the Grivel Evo is nice

the BCA Tour looks like it will work perfectly for my needs :) 16 oz for a full metal shovel, not too bad- almost half the weight of my Mammut

Mike,

"are you modifying the windpro at all for winter use (seen a couple of articles of folks modding them some)? will the canister invert or do you have to do something to get it to invert?"

The windpro canister can be inverted, but needs to be propped up against something. One could cut a slot in a margarine tub. But it could also be placed bottom down in a small container with a little water in it for the same effect. I have tried either in the field yet. It only weighs about 10 oz.

I thought about the giga-stove mod that Roger Caffin did. But to be honest, there is always a chance that the homemade connector block washers could leak, and that could be dangerous. I think his total weight ended up being around 8 oz or so.

That shovel is almost 6 oz lighter than mine. Cost is only $39. From a weight stand point, much better.

Of course the question is how much weight are you really going to get on the shovel head, and will a wooden handle support it? I would say mine is probably fine. The odds of an avalanche are small, where I go. Of course an avalanche is a serious issue, not to be taken lightly.

For a 6 oz savings at $39, I will probably get it.

I was wrong…I have the BCA tour and not the traverse.
Honestly, I think your shovel is fine Nick.
Someone said to carry a "real" shovel. As long as your handle stays on securely, that looks like a real shovel to me. I'd take that over shiny new telescoping shovel with a plastic head….

a reviewer measure the BCA Tour as overweight at 18.5 ounces, not the claimed 16

http://www.sierradescents.com/gear/avalanche/

the voile XLM weights 16 oz … warning on these small shovels, theyre fine for normal uses and emergency avalanche use, but no ideal of course … but you can still chop snow/ice with them

it's less than $40 anyways for a 6 oz savings …

You could try a Petzl Snowscopic, combination pole/axe for 1 lb. I've never used one let alone seen one in person, but it could be a good way to cut down. Although, as others have said, some new axes are really really light. And the Snowscopic costs $155 when you already have poles, ouch.

I picked up the Traverse at an REI garage sale to carry with me this winter when snowshoeing. I was initially looking at purchasing a new Black Diamond model but their shovel heads were much larger when comparing them in store. I think that the OP's vintage shovel would be great for heavy wet snow, but not as useful with light fluffy powder. For the Sierra's I'd stay with a small shovel head, for the Rockies switch to a larger blade.

My Voile XLM is also claimed at 16oz but is actually 18oz. Seems like both of the lightest metal shovels are a bit heavier than manufacturers' claims. Or maybe mine is an one-off.

Having an alu shovel with a real handle for snow cave, kitchen, and tent platform digging sounds fine to me. But if you're alone and without a beacon, how is it going to help in an avalanche?

If you don't know much about avys, and intend to hike in winter in or near the mountains, learn enough so you can stay out of avy terrain. Buy Bruce Trempers book and an inclometer.

I found that the main cause for shovel failure was user stupidity. I was leading a beginner snowcamping trip one time, and I saw a beginner using one of my lightweight aluminum shovels. The problem was that he was using it like it was a steel pry bar. He bent that sucker right where the shaft joins the shovel.

–B.G.–

Bob,

More than likely just a lack of common sense, knowledge, experience. Of course when it is a piece of our own equipment, then stupid is the very first thought that pops into our minds. :)

I have a garage full of expensive tools. One night I caught my wife with a very expensive extra long, very slender Snap-on screw driver in her hands and she way trying to pry something that was stuck in the garbage disposal. Of course the thought popped into my mind… fortunately I didn't verbalize it. :)

I have the BCA tour shovel. 16 oz on my scale, and I've been very happy with it. Of course, if you are in avalanche terrain, the important thing is what kind of shovel your partner is carrying! If you travel solo, then the shovel is purely a camp building tool – you're not going to dig yourself out of an avalanche – and for camp digging you could go lighter with a SnowClaw. As to axes, you can get a lot lighter if you want to. There are axes down to about 8 oz (Camp Corsa) – but at that weight it is purely a self-arrest tool, not really for climbing per se. I think you can get down to around 12-14 oz and still have a steel head. That's probably as light as you want to go if you actually expect to chop some steps and such.