MLD DuoMid vs. Scarp 1 for snow? Need feedback, please.

Hello Nick –

I know you prefer solo trips, do you plan to hike alone in the snow?

I have one night in my Duomid in the snow and it worked great.

Floorless wasn't an issue for me, I just spread out a ground sheet to prevent stuff from getting lost in the snow and put my pads on top of that. The center pole was no problem either, there is plenty of room behind it.

Finally, it was very cold that night so any condensation just froze on the tent.

It's only one trip, but I was more than happy with the Duomid and look forward to more nights this year.

If on snow, then the floorless takes the cake IMO. Gives a margin for error regarding sinking of the floor vs the sides regarding a "full" tent such as the Scarp. Tension on the sides will pull on the seams when you sink the floor on snow.

The floor room on the duomid is much greater as well, which is quite the benefit in winter camping if it is not in *severe* conditions requiring a more serious tent.

In regards to wind deflection, the scarp *may* hold an advantage but not too much if site selection is good.

Snow loading will be better in a Mid as well.

Condensation will likely be an issue in both, with the nod to the Mid due to greater area to keep gear (namely your sleeping bag) from touching the walls.

In all but *severe* winter conditions, I go w/ a Mid. Versatility, weight and room. And did I mention weight?

"Snow loading will be better in a Mid as well."

Than the Scarp with the cross poles? I would disagree.

Personally, I would go for the Scarp for superior wind and snow performance assuming you equip it with the cross poles. The addition of the fabric inner tent will protect you against any condensation and add a bit of warmth assuming it is windy (i.e. prevent heat loss from condensation). I also believe that having a freestanding shelter is a boon in snowy conditions (more a preference).

The Scarp will also have more usable space and not only because of the lack of centre pole. Mids are not efficient at providing maximum space because of the shape – the slope of the sides minimize usable space. If you choose to use the shelter with two, the Scarp will provide more room.

@ David L — Yes I have always done my winter trips solo. Sometimes it is a hassle getting a permit from the ranger, going through the 3rd degree. And I understand the risk. I used to use the Choiunard a lot, and sometimes all the inside surfaces of the tent would be completely covered in a sheet of ice. The vents in the newer mids should help some, but it is still a concern.

@ Nicholas — I have never thought about a sinking floor. I always compress the snow with my snowshoes, side stepping an outline of the footprint. They only "tent" I have used in the snow was one of the early SD Flashlights and that never happened. But it sounds plausible. One thing about usable floor space, is that the pole and slanting walls reduce the usable "living" space. And these are items to take into consideration. From what I have read pyramids do fairly well in wind. And I have never had a problem in winds with this kind of structure(probably gusts of 30 mph are the highest I experienced). And just looking at the design, snow should not accumulate, but if it did only the structure of the material would be handling the load, since there is just one vertical pole. But these are all the factors I am trying to sort out. And of course… the weight!!

@ David U — Your points are what I have been pondering. I see a lot of advantages of the Scarp as far as "living convenience," with the penalty of a lot of weight. And this is my conundrum.

I sure would like to hear more input, thoughts, opinions, bias, etc.

Thanks everyone.

I vote for the Scarp. I have the Scarp 2, but haven't tested it in winter yet. As David said, in windy conditions, especially with blowing snow, the Scarp is going to be more comfortable because it's better at blocking the wind and keeping out snow. The DuoMid would probably be significantly lighter though?

I've read online reports of both mids in general and the Scarp specifically having significant condensation. I've only pitched the Scarp in the backyard so far, and there was significant condensation. But, around here, I experience condensation in every shelter I pitch, even a tarp. The Scarp is very easy to change venting once it's setup. The DuoMid would be a little easier to pitch in a strong wind. The Scarp _seems_ more likely to require glove removal to adjust the guyline tension, feed the middle pole into the sleeve, or put the straps on the crossing poles.

I only have 2 or 3 nights in my DuoMid in the winter and I have never used a TarpTent, so take my comments with a big grain of salt.

I think either would work great. One might be slightly better then the other in regards to wind, snow load, etc. but for 99% of your winter trips I think both will be able to handle any wind and snow that is thrown at you.

It depends on what conditions you will typically see. With a floorless shelter you can dig in the snow to make more headroom, a bench to hold your gear, etc. Although, I have never done it, I have seen pictures on this site of people standing up protected by their mid, because they dug out so much snow under the shelter.

Having a freestanding shelter can be nice thought. If the snow is too soft to hold stakes, dead falls, etc. you will need to stomp on the snow and let it set. In a storm, this might not be ideal and you may want to setup and get inside your shelter as quickly as possible.

If you are concerned about the center pole you can get two long poles and put them at the sides similar to the SoloMid shelter. This also helps brace the walls as well if you put the poles up against the walls.

Regarding condensation in my DuoMid I normally either have it very well ventilated. However, if it is going to be very cold I batten down the hatches. This pretty much guarantees condensation, but one night it was -7F, so things pretty much froze instantly against the silnylon wall and I didn't need to worry about it getting any of my gear wet.

Good luck in your decision and either way let us know how it works out for you.

.

Nick – I have the SoloMid so I am not negating the benefits of that type of shelter. Just wanted to be clear. However, when it comes to substantial snow (especially the wet stuff), the sides or ends depending on the configuration of the pole(s) will bow in.

One thing you may want to do is order one, try it out and sell it if it does not meet your requirements.

Re: Skurka – I read on his Facebook page that he switched out shelters at some point in the trip. I wonder if he meant adding or deleting the inner net with the SoloMid? On the other hand, he did not encounter peak of winter conditions with that shelter based on his timing of the expedition.

Obviously you could get by with either to a point. The question is – should you get stuck in a raging snow storm that dumps 10" of snow, where would you rather spend your time?

"Mids are not efficient at providing maximum space because of the shape – the slope of the sides minimize usable space. If you choose to use the shelter with two, the Scarp will provide more room."

Given a dug out snow floor, mids provide quite a bit of space actually – one just has to block up the center pole. Palatial actually, when compared to a solid ground pitch as the sloping walls are greatly mitigated.

And David is right about the cross poles being stronger – I forgot to consider those. And I haven't had a Scarp, so all I am doing is speculating here…

Please let us know what you go w/and how you like it!

I guess one could also leave the inner of the Scarp at home and bring just the outer with the cross poles. Then he / she could dig out the bottom and still have more room than the DuoMid with better snow load capability. The weight difference would then become much less.

I'd go for the mid. You can angle the pole quite a bit with no loss of stability. As for condensation, if it's a still night (when condensation seems to be the worst, open the door! I've not had serious condensation issues on nights with 30 mph winds. I would think that head and foot collapse under snow loading might well be an issue, perhaps the Solomid is better here.

Best reason for a floorless winter shelter? You can pee without getting out of your bag at night! Priceless.

"You can angle the pole quite a bit with no loss of stability"

?? Please explain.

Normally the pole is directly vertical. You can shift the base of the trekking pole a bit so the pole is angled. The DuoMid is still very stable, but instead of the base of the pole in the middle it is now 6-12 inches towards the front wall and that gives more space in the back for sleeping etc.

"Obviously you could get by with either to a point. The question is – should you get stuck in a raging snow storm that dumps 10" of snow, where would you rather spend your time?"

That is my concern. Many people view so Cal mtns or the Southern Sierras as mild areas. Back in the 80's I spent two nights in a tent in a storm that dumped over 2 feet of snow in two days. There are times where people get lost in the San Jacintos and SAR cannot even attempt to hike the 5+ miles to the peak due to severe weather. I am not afraid to go out in these conditions, IF I have the correct gear. Actually I like the conditions, because I get to be the only person out there. I can leave my house that is almost at sea level and in an hour be at 8,500 feet with no crowds. This means I do not have to plan a trip, I just go when I want, and it can be on the spur of the moment. I do not have to worry about road closures, chains for my vehicle, etc.

This link may also be helpful for showing snow loads in the mid type shelters. I haven’t seen anything similar for the Scarp.

Buried Solo Mid

@Jeff. I am not sure you would get the same stability. Consider if you have set up the Mid in the snow and used deadman anchors because the ground is frozen. You then angle the pole to the west (i.e. the bottom of the pole is toward the west) to gain more room. What happens if a considerable wind starts hitting the shelter from the west. Say 30mph. In addition, the snow is falling, loading up the sides of the shelter.

In this scenario, are you suggesting that with one guyline holding the whole shelter up it would offer just a little bit less stability than if the pole was fixed in the middle of the shelter?

I can't see that. Perhaps if you had two trekking poles with extenders offsetting each other like with the SoloMid (which is why the SoloMid bu design is better for snow loading, IMHO).

Here is some video and pics of the Scarp in the Snow.

http://www.hikinginfinland.com/2009/12/video-tarptent-scarp-1-in-snow.html

Thanks to Hendrik.

@David
I agree you don't get the same stability. I have only moved the base of the pole about 6 inches. And it was still very stable. Was it the same stability? I am sure it wasn't. I would guess it would be better for some wind directions and worse for others. However, for most conditions I would think the difference in stability would be minor. And in the cases where it did make a difference in the storm of the century I would just leave the pole in the center.

I have never had my DuoMid in more then 10 mph of wind. When I tested the stability after offsetting the pole 6 inches I pushed on the top of the DuoMid in all directions while standing outstanding and it seemed to deal with a lot of pressure just fine in any direction.

Not scientific at all, but it was good enough for me at the time.

In my experience (using a trekking pole or a paddle in an MLD Trailstar) an angled pole (off to the side 8-10", not towards the head or foot) does not reduce the functional stability of a well staked and tensioned (key!) mid. It probably affects the theoretical strength, but not in a way that is applicable in the real world.

I own and use a DuoMid and a Scarp 1. I don't get to go out in snow much but I do know what the wind can do to each shelter. If you expect strong winds and exposed sites to pitch I would use the Scarp with cross over poles and no inner to save weight if any condensation is expected to freeze the benefit of a inner to keep condensation of you is not needed. The DuoMid is a fine shelter but the wind can smash it about and push the sides in. its tall and the wind catches the sides. Space wise a Scarp has loads of room as well as the DuoMid.

@David C – I appreciate the TrailStar, but it is much wider than the DuoMid and is a pentagon tarp – not a traditional pyramid. You also haven't indicated how the Trailstar did in a foot of snow.

Here are a couple of scale model comparison views. Olive green shows the SoloMid; Scarp 1 has gray fly and blue interior; Light green simulates a 6'4" body on pad extending up 10". Note the usable interior volume differences. There's really no comparison and that's what you're "paying for" weightwise. With regard to snowloading, the ends of the Scarp are uncrushable and you are ensured that snow will not be pressing down on your face or feet. Not the case with a pyramid design at the ends where snow slides/stacks and crushes the perimeter.

Perfect Henry – thanks.

Henry,

Thank you for the input. Of course you have no vested interest in this discussion :)

I do not want to debate MLD versus TarpTent as companies. I have several MLD pieces of equipment and all are top notch, plus customer service has been great. I am just looking for the best option for a specific need. I am really leaning towards the Scarp, other than the weight… however function is going to be more important than weight.

Question (I was going to call you, but it might be more helpful to share with the forum)…

Someone mentioned using the tent without the inner. How is the tent constructed? Is the fly free standing with no floor? Is there a floor that integrates with the fly? Can the inner actually be removed? Any advantages to not using the fly other than weight reduction? Any opinions on your double wall construction and condensation in winter conditions (I know condensation is part of the experience). Any other features and benefits of the Scarp 1 we have overlooked?

If you prefer not to get into all of this on the forum, please just send me a PM, and I will call you directly.

Thanks, in advance.

Nick