Which tents under 3kg will take 100km/h winds from any direction?

[Stuart Murphy]

Anyone used Nemo tents with the air beams? I like the sound of being bashed in the face if it means the "poles" can't bend.

Also, does pitching a pyramid with a "nest" mean that you turn an outer pitch first into an inner pitch first (how does the pole connect to the fly via the nest?)?

[Andrew Dolman]

You can pitch a pyramid with a nest, like the Hex/SL3, inner or outer first. Inner first is easier because the nest gives you the right shape then you just throw the fly over and attach to the same pegs as the nest.

In heavy rain and wind you can peg the fly out in roughly the right place, slide the nest underneath and position it while it's undercover – re-peg where necessary. Then insert the pole and fettle away.

In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow.

[Clayton Black]

Thanks Roger. The information available is often overwhelming and you do a great job of crunching it down.

[Andy F]

"In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow."

Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength.

[Andrew Dolman]

Yeah, the Hex had a stated hydrostatic head of 3500mm. 1200mm is just about adequate, assuming the fabric does not degrade much – which PU coated fabric are known to do.

The SL3 is lighter than the Hex3, so it's a trade off. But I'm not entirely sure that it's the "bomber" tent that the original Hex is. Still a good tent, but a slightly different range of uses.

"Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength."

[. .]

@Stu-

One other tent to consider is the Bibler Tempest, which shares architectural styling with the Fitzroy, but is a bit narrower and taller profile and includes vestibule(s) for the same weight.

I have only used a Tempest in winter, so I cannot comment, but the Fitzroy is surprisingly quite livable in most seasons. It has excellent ventilation with the large screen doors, which have an adequate awning for covering the opening.

Having owned and use many tents over the years, from 'mids, to Hilleberg, tunnels and geo-domes, the Fitzroy is hands down the sturdiest and strongest tent of them all. The Hillebergs I find to be the most livable overall, but the Fitzroy has a much smaller footprint and can be pitched far more places and takes wind from any direction.

Now if only we can get one with a built-in Cuben vestibule and using the newer breathable Cuben laminate. ;)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Stuart

Lots of manufacturers offer the double-pole option simply because it is very easy to make the pole sleeve large enough to take 2 poles. Frankly, I think that's why you see it mentioned so often. I question how many have ever implemented the idea for real.

But do they help? Well, that depends on the conditions. This tent:

has single 7.5 mm carbon fibre poles and silnylon fabric. It took winds well over 100 kph from the rear end on a saddle one night – for further details see "When Things Go Wrong". (Stupid place to be camped …) It showed no sign of stress with the wind end-on. My wife watched the tent behaviour for a bit, and then went to sleep.

If you had this tent side-on to the wind it would be a bit more loaded, for sure, but the closely-spaced tent poles with the double guy ropes were able to take some pretty bad weather on another night. The photo does show the wind side-on – it was taken the day before the peak.

The killer is the wind gusting straight down, as I have mentioned. Yes, the extra strength of double poles would of course help here, but you would be better advised imho to use internal guy ropes across the tent to stop the poles from buckling. The weight of the internal guys is negligible, and their contribution is actually significantly larger than that from double poles. Yeah – you have to dodge the guys when you sit up, but we are talking some pretty savage conditions here, and under those conditions you LIKE seeing the extra strength! Caveat: the tent must be designed to use internal guy ropes: most are not.

Cheers

[Robert Blean]

> you would be better advised imho to use internal guy ropes
> across the tent to stop the poles from buckling. The weight
> of the internal guys is negligible, and their contribution
> is actually significantly larger than that from double
> poles.

Interestingly, Stephenson's "Climber" model has these standard (I think they are an option on other models, but did not check). The description says:

Comes with windstablizers because we figured climbers would need it. If you are not going to use with 60mph+ winds then just ask to have without the windstablizers and save 2 ounces!

— MV

[Stuart Murphy]

What about the Sierra Designs Convert 2?

It's single wall, but has provision for internal guying. Design is not unlike Bibler itent and similar. Wonder how strong it is….

Just to add to my confusion:

* Vango do not claim an increase in strength when using TBS… just that it makes the tent more liveable (by reducing flexing). However, TBS is a simpler bracing than available on the Stephenson's or Sierra Design tents.

* Robens Green Hawk as tested here http://www.outdoor-magazin.com/zelte/test-robens-green-hawk.424497.d_odc_produkt_testbericht.3.htm They seem to be saying that the tent will take 120 km/h from the side and it is a 2 pole tunnel with long poles (given that users sleep parallel to the poles). Again, that could just be my German ;) It's heavier than my target weight but if that claim is true, it redefines what I thought about 2 pole tunnels and regardless of pedigree you can't trust a tent until you know exactly what it can do as there seems to be too much variation even amongst 2 pole tunnels. Maybe they meant it would take wind from either end. Regardless, of whether the end or the side, that is an achievement for what essentially looks like a big floppy kite.

[David Olsen]

"In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow."

Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength."

—

only if the coating is heavier than the silicone coating
of the previous fabric.

Most fire retardant fabrics (ie melt away from open
flame and go out) for lighter tents, are achieved by using weaker fabrics, not a coating.

PU generally weakens the fabric it is
applied to. Any old timers remember why Kelty did not
coat their pack cloth on their frame packs?

A 15 denier fabric with a PU coating would make the fabric
much less strong, maybe lighter, and maybe pass flammability tests. Might be an advance in some ways.

It may not be the fabric of choice for 100 mph winds.

[David Olsen]

"Because the huge elasticity in silnylon allows it to absorb sudden gusts without creating extreme localised stress. It stretches, and recovers. The non-stretch nature of Cuban does not do this, and I suspect you could reach burst-strength at some critical point on the tent fabric quite easily."

Seeing as cuben fiber was developed for use as a spinnaker for racing sail boats (winning ones at that, America cubed,
hence the name cuben fiber) the correct weight of cuben should be fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%C2%B3
Construction may be different than silnylon tho.

Don't get me wrong, at this time I think silnylon is the best for all around shelter use if you factor in cost and care.

[Andy F]

"A 15 denier fabric with a PU coating would make the fabric
much less strong, maybe lighter, and maybe pass flammability tests. Might be an advance in some ways."

It's interesting and unexpected that a PU coating weakens the fabric rather than strengthening it!

[Dale Wambaugh]

My father is a WWII vet and was on Okinawa during an extreme typhoon. We were talking about his experiences and he told me about quonset huts (the rounded prefab buildings used in the South Pacific, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quonset_hut) and how they were secured. He said they had a series of cables strung across the arched sections and staked into the ground.

It struck me that just about any tent design could be secured using a net and stakes. Imagine a Spectra line net and a pile of Ti stakes.

[Franco Darioli]

I can see that it may help to keep the tent down (not fly away) but it would not necessarily keep it up (pole breakage)
The main problem I see with that is if you use a superstrong thin net (say Dyneema) it would cut through the fabric with abrasion . if you use a thicker somewhat softer version it would be too bulky.
Franco

[jim jessop]

No personal experience at those wind speeds (yet) but in terms of commercially available tents the Stephenson's Warmlite 2C, 2R or 3R would all fit the bill, according to their website specs, and all would come in well below the requested weight.

With the 3R a 3rd pole can be added (though they stress not really needed) and internal wind stabilisers are an available option on any of these models (and come as standard on the 2C).

[Dale Wambaugh]

Franco wrote: I can see that it may help to keep the tent down (not fly away) but it would not necessarily keep it up (pole breakage)
The main problem I see with that is if you use a superstrong thin net (say Dyneema) it would cut through the fabric with abrasion . if you use a thicker somewhat softer version it would be too bulky."

Good point on the abrasion. I was imagineering out loud of course (still am). The mesh could be quite large– lets say a 6"/15cm grid of coated Spectra like Zing-It line? Staked down nice and snug, the fabric wouldn't be doing the wild dance, which would also take a lot of stress off the poles. You would still have the general wind load trying to push the tent in one direction, but even that would be aided by the multi-point reinforcement of a grid of lines. I could see it being pulled off with 8oz/225g worth of Zing-it and Ti stakes. I'll bet you could double the wind performance of any geodesic design for a few dollars and an evening's macramé work.

When dome tents first came on the market, I saw some crazy things happen to them in the wind, flexing over sideways 45 degrees or more and giving the occupants a haunted house night for sleep. Of course with the easy pitch, people where plunking them down in the most scenic (and exposed) spot. Manufacturers started adding guy lines and the experienced campers used them. My point being that a few extra guy points can make a large difference in wind performance.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Another idea might be an inner tent itself made of that net and the entire inner tent would act as an inner tensioning device.

[Stuart Murphy]

Extra guy points is a good idea.

What about exoskeleton tents – is there a way to directly connect guys to the poles without them slipping along the length of the pole?

Also, would want to spread the connection point so as not to localise stress on the pole.

Also, given that poles are the weak link in pretty much any tent (that isn't UV damaged) why not use those thick poles like are available in Stephenson tents? Do they become too brittle? Some flex is good of course but you don't want a tent being routinely flattened to the ground as could happen in strong winds – poles will bend -or at best living space will be… ummm… compromised. Anyone experiment with thicker poles?

[ROBERT TANGEN]

Re: "I was imagineering out loud of course (still am)." Good job, because small hammocks have in fact been used for decades at Everest's North Col and other places. Both old and new videos of Everest climbs show VE-25s and MH Trango tents being held down with gear hammocks and other small hammocks thrown over the top then staked out.

[Franco Darioli]

BTW, my thoughts had to do with this thread. That is keeping in mind the "less than 3 kg " bit and assuming backpacking not basecamping.
Franco

[Lynn Tramper]

Well, the MacPac Olympus comes in at 3kg (trail weight, though I always carry extra pegs), and is a tried and trusted design. Most any tunnel tent can be modified to accept trekking poles to support the poles from downward gusts, including the Nemo airbeam technology. I have a Nemo HypnoPQ that I am willing to sell if you want to give it a try…it's part of my Earthquake sale, and is in very good condition:

http://19rice.com/bd/633/tag/Nemo#entry_136

It's a shame the trekking pole mod doesn't come standard in most tents. Side winds are the biggest issue for sure, but careful staking and guying can mitigate some of this.

[Kai Larson]

Rab summit mountain bivi fits these criteria.

http://us.rab.uk.com/equipment/bivvis/summit_mountain_bivi—140/

[. .]

There may be a couple of Lightwave Tents that may fit the criteria.

The G2 UltriX sticks out as having fared well in recent wind tunnel testing::

I should have my hands on a Vaude Power Odyssee soon to check out further. There was a member here who bought one a few months back and reported that it came in around 1.8kg minimum – which is well below specs. Aye.

[Roger Caffin]

> What about exoskeleton tents – is there a way to directly connect guys to the
> poles without them slipping along the length of the pole?

I suspect that MANY designers have wished for something like that! I know I have. However, my experience has been that good guy rope attachments – ones that spread the load for a few inches along the pole seam, do work quite well enough. The pole keeps the tent up and the guy rope holds the fly against the wind. It is the fly, not the poles, which cop the wind after all.

> given that poles are the weak link in pretty much any tent
Don't think I will agree with you there. It is not hard to get a moderately balanced distribution of strength between the poles and the fabric. As for the next bit …

> don't want a tent being routinely flattened to the ground as could happen in strong winds
If your tent gets 'routinely flattened to the ground' then you have the wrong tent (and inadequate guy ropes) for the conditions, and the poles are not going to last any time at all. For that matter, neither is the fabric.

Cheers

[Stuart Murphy]

Aaron – let us know how you get on with the Power Odyssey, what the workmanship is like and total weight etc.

Re Lightwave – some great tents in the range but I really don't like inner pitch first and I think it increases the chance of bending poles if you have to pitch/strike in heavy wind.

In fact I think I will buy a Wild Country Sololite which is exoskeleton – increasing the chances I can put it up/take it down (and repitch if necessary) in strong wind. I'm not saying this tent meets the criteria of my original post (in fact I would say it almost certainly couldn't take that amount of wind from the side, but maybe it will take 60 km/h from the side which is more than many 2 pole tunnels can do comfortably I believe (it is scary how little wind it can take to damage a tent). It is solid, cheap and worthy of an experiment.

At the end of the day I am not going to be routinely camping in such strong winds and the post was more to get a safety factor in case bad weather caught me in an exposed location.

I have dismissed many fine single wall shelters and would get a Hilleberg Soulo except that for my purposes they are quite expensive.

I will search a little further to see whether there are any tents with internal guying that fit the bill.

Roger – the Sololite has some hubs that would facilitate direct attachment of guys. I'm thinking that some shock cord and guys on them may help (particularly for side loading). Additionally I can experiment with attaching at other points along the main ridge pole.

You may be right that for tents generally the pole strength is more or less appropriate for the strength of the other elements of the tent. However, most reports seem to be of broken or buckled poles (as opposed to ripped fabric or something) and I tend to therefore think that this is the weakest link.

Going back to what you where saying about the need for a survey of tents fulfilling the criteria of this post… I personally would find more interesting a comparison of the archetypes (2 pole vs 3 pole tunnel, single pole, 3 pole geodesic, etc). Unfortunately the Outdoor Magazin wind machine tests seem to indicate signifiant variability within a "type" of tent, so you would need to investigate that to some extent. One approach could be to pick "best of breed" for each of the types and say this is the most performance you can hope to get from this design.

Alternatively you could investigate some of the things explored in these posts – eg. testing tent A with standard poles and then oversized.

Don't know if the above suggestions are practical, but it's definitely something I'd love to see researched in a methodical way – clearly you cannot rely on tent manufacturers to give reliable data (though a precious few will speak candidly about their products).

What would other people like to see "reviewed" – a product or a design?

Cheers
Stuart

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