Sep 10, 2010 at 5:29 am #1263149
… and that you can sit up in.Sep 10, 2010 at 6:09 am #1644445
@ianrockLocale: Cragfast in the UK.
Have a look at the Crux X2 Storm, there is a review on BPL somewhere. Spent a few nights in one with metered gusts around 100mph mark and it held it's ground with very little deformation.Sep 10, 2010 at 6:50 am #1644456
Yeah, that most definitely is a good tent – Outdoor Magazin tested it to 135 km/h I think (video online).
Thing that worries me is whether it could safely be set up by one person, say in 80 km/h winds, without killing it.Sep 10, 2010 at 7:18 am #1644463
@ianrockLocale: Cragfast in the UK.
Mmmm… you may be pushing it on your own in those sort of winds.
Two of us bent a pole slightly whilst taking a Crux down, due to a big gust at just the wrong moment. The features that make the Crux so strong also means it takes longer to put up / takedown.
Maybe a bibler style tent maybe better suited to solo pitches. The Hilleberg Soulo also comes to mind.Sep 10, 2010 at 8:07 am #1644476
Likely that your pegs would pull out at those speeds. In any event, the Hilleberg Akto, Nallo, Soulo will meet the requirement without completely shredding.Sep 10, 2010 at 9:26 am #1644501
Your criteria in non-metric units:
Consider the Tarptent Scarp with crossing poles, tipi and mid tents, such as:
Titanium Goat Vertex
Golite Shangri-La 3
MLD, Oware, Black Diamond pyramids
Use good stakes and a solid pole.
The review of the Golite Hex (now the SL 3) on this site describes it:
"The 32 oz Hex withstood a night of rain, sleet, hail and 40-50 mph wind gusts, completely exposed on a ridge at over 12,000 feet. Our reviewers woke up in the morning warm and completely dry."
This was using lashed-together trekking poles.
I read an unconfirmed report somewhere once that an SL 3 barely survived 100 mph gusts.Sep 10, 2010 at 10:59 am #1644531
I doubt silnylon with its low tear strength will hold up to those types of winds.Sep 10, 2010 at 12:53 pm #1644576
I don't think any 2 pole tunnel will take strong wind broadside. Even 40-50 km/h is sketchy with some some decent tunnels. I read a report of "at least" 80 km/h for a Hilleberg Nammatj, a photo showing deformation and the owner reporting he replaced poles after that ("just to be safe").
Personally I doubt even 80 is doable with that tent (without, for example, a snow wall to break the force of the wind). Yes, I know tunnels are designed to flex but a 2 pole tunnel is only strong if pitched tail to the wind. At the risk of staring WWIII only a geodesic design can deal with big loads (wind or otherwise) without the distinct possibility of bent poles. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I will happily be proved wrong but I think you need only watch that video on You Tube of the 4 pole Hilleberg tunnel getting pummeled and the geodesics in the background looking unfazed. There is simply TOO much give, particularly with a 2 pole design that means the tent gets flattened to the ground.
Paradoxically, I think some 1 pole designs might be less fussy of wind direction and perhaps put up with that (maybe because they tend to be tiny coffins – not that there's anything wrong with that) but I have no hard evidence other than the occasional comment on forums (where people – at least those that don't measure it – likely tend to overestimate wind speed).
Incidentally, the only review site I have found (Outdoor Magazin) that regularly posts videos of tents in controlled conditions (in front of a wind machine) does not consistently report thresholds for wind resistance from tents pitched at different angles to the wind (or maybe it's becuase I don't speak German). However, you can get some insight from variability between tents of the same fundamental design and different designs (there are good and even bad "high end" geodesic tents for example, the Mountain Equipment Helio coming to mind as a poor example from the geodesic stable – failed at 80 km/h from memory).
There is a video of a 3 pole Hilleberg tunnel (MUCH stronger than a 2 pole I think) breaking a pole with the wind side on. While they don't publish the wind speed (that I can see) this occurs at, you can judge by the machine it is lower than it would be with the wind from the end (and I would not be confident the tent could take 80 let alone 100 from the side).
I reckon manufacturers (law suits or not) owe prospective customers some hard data with what tents can put up with. Comments like "wind tunnels don't nearly approx real world conditions" are a cop out (at least that would be a point of comparison if tested in a standard way. Clearly, anyone buying a Helios for expedition purposes is risking breakage (or worse). Granted, UV degradation, and quality of pitch are perhaps more significant than the original design of a tent. [Sorry if I've got my facts screwed about the Helios – but you get the point].Sep 10, 2010 at 2:10 pm #1644590
The Mountain Laurel Designs TrailStar and Duomids are excellent. I stayed 3 nights above 3300 meters with STRONG winds coming from several different directions depending on the time of day and had no issues. Highly recommended.Sep 10, 2010 at 2:26 pm #1644594
"Inside the Hex […] the wind was blowing the snow into the tent. […] the wind blew away the windblocks and started pulling at the stakes. (The snow stakes had been set for a day by this point, so they were stuck in there pretty good.) At this point, the wind was gusting like mad…nearby Mt Diablo had measured speeds of 100 mph, and Tahoe recorded 65-143 mph. We were higher in elevation than Tahoe, and on an exposed ridgeline. Wonder what our true windspeeds were!"Sep 10, 2010 at 2:41 pm #1644597
100 kph from (roughly) end direction is quite easy with a good tunnel tent (poles attached to fly). Pitching and pulling down a tunnel tent under extreme conditions is also easy. I've even done it kneeling.
100 kph from the side of a tunnel tent (and other designs) is more difficult of course. The key factors in determining this are:
* Span of unsupported fabric (ie distance between poles)
* Length of poles (longer => weaker)
* Curvature of poles (tighter curvature => greater strength)
* Attachment of poles to fly (crucial)
* Availability of external guy ropes at poles
* Availability of internal guy ropes to brace poles.
Unfortunately the market for extreme UL tents is very limited, and not attractive to the commercial makers in general.
* A 2-pole tunnel tent won't take extreme side winds safely.
* A 3-pole tunnel may take side winds provided it is small.
* A 4-pole tunnel tent can take extreme side winds when well anchored.
* A geodesic dome with the poles threaded in the fly can take a severe battering but is usually heavy.
* A pop-up dome with a throw-over fly is suitable for sheltered 3-season use.
* Most other tents are 3-season.
* There will be exceptions …
Naturally these comments will attract a storm of criticism. I understand that people are attached to whatever they have. But there is a difference between just surviving one night in a storm and being able to confidently go out knowing the weather will be bad.
The question of anchors was also raised. To some extent the strength of an anchor depends on the soil or snow into which it is placed. But it is not difficult to get anchors which can take 100+ kph winds, in either soil or sand, and they do NOT have to be huge. Art-form!
Finally, one wind direction not considered so far is vertical. Yes, straight down. Obviously you won't get this in a steady-state, but you CAN get it in gusts in alpine conditions, when a vortex detaches from a nearby rock or cliff or bank. Very few tents can take a load of snow on top plus a sudden slam straight down from a gust: the whole tent design and the poles are not meant to take it. Such conditions can be handled, but they are extreme.
CheersSep 10, 2010 at 3:01 pm #1644604
Franco DarioliBPL Member
3 pole tunnel tents have been used by several expeditions to the South Pole.
Last year the Race To The South Pole teams (2-3 per team) used the Nanok Domus Expedition, a 4kg 3 person tent.
Nanok have a smaller 2 person version under 3 kg.
The stated weight of the DomusDuo is 2.859 kg including 25 (!!!) stakes ( 356g )
Winds speeds over 100 KMPH are common enough down there.
http://www.nanok.no/engelsk/page37/page6/page6.htmlSep 10, 2010 at 3:19 pm #1644610
Clayton BlackBPL Member
Which would more storm worthy in the Duomid, Silnylon or Cuben Fiber?
Is the ripstop denier in the SL3 generally considered more resistant than the Silnylon or Cuben Fiber?Sep 10, 2010 at 3:56 pm #1644624
Jason ElsworthBPL Member
@jephotoLocale: New Zealand
Definitely agree with Roger regrading geodesic domes where the poles are NOT threaded into the flysheet. I had a three pole design badly bent out of shape in strong winds. In fairness it was the tail end of a typhoon hitting Wellington, New Zealand.Sep 10, 2010 at 5:22 pm #1644645
. .BPL Member
@biointegraLocale: Puget Sound
I don't think you could beat a Bibler Fitzroy (2.9kg) for strength alone. I have camped on top of numerous exposed ridges and peaks and it doesn't budge. One really even need not to guy it out until gusts breach 50 mph, in my opinion. It is very roomy and versatile for two people, although it lacks a vestibule at this weight. We have never had problems with condensation.
Another few to consider for your criteria (w/ min. weights) :
– REI Arete ASL 2 (2.7kg)
– Vaude Power Odyssee (2.5kg+?)
– Hilleberg Jannu (2.5kg)
– Hilleberg Allak (2.5kg)
– Mountain Hardwear EV2 (2.7kg)
There are others which have been mentioned and certainly more remain, but the above list came to mind as having 3 or more crossing poles and of correspondingly stout stature and adequate geometry to potentially handle shifting winds.
I am especially curious about the Power Odyssee, with it's clip design, but I have heard conflicting reports on it's weight (hence the "?") and have not had one in hand yet.Sep 10, 2010 at 6:15 pm #1644657
Ben 2 WorldBPL Member
@ben2worldLocale: So Cal
I would feel comfortable with any of Hilleberg's tents — with a preference toward their dome tents for better performance with winds from any and all directions.
Actually, for 100kph gusts, methinks my beloved Big Agnes Seedhouse 2 SL — appropriately guyed and staked — will do fine as well. I've had mine in 50+mph and it performed flawlessly.Sep 10, 2010 at 6:46 pm #1644665
Nallo 2 – 2 pole in 40-60mph winds.
Apparently a 2 pole tunnel doesn't blow away.Sep 10, 2010 at 9:04 pm #1644695
Roger: Do you know of any commercially available tunnels that meet the criteria you mention (and are still under 3kg)?
Does anyone have any thoughts on how an inner first pitch might be stronger than poles threaded thru the fly(I know it's counter intuitive, but the Crux Storm outperformed both a Hilleberg Staika and Exped Orion in the Outdoor Magazin demo – would a Crux Storm with poles threaded thru flysheet – if it were commercially viable to make it that way – be necessarily better than what it currently is)?Sep 10, 2010 at 10:42 pm #1644706
Steven ParisBPL Member
@saparisorLocale: Pacific Northwest
Mountain Hardwear EV3 on sale at campsaver.com for $599.96. A little more weight for the 3-person but good price.Sep 10, 2010 at 11:31 pm #1644709
> Roger: Do you know of any commercially available tunnels that meet the
> criteria you mention (and are still under 3kg)?
That's a hard one, and I am going to duck for cover right now. As you probably know, I ended up making my own 4-pole double-skin 2-man winter tent because I could not find something which met my criteria at a light-enough weight.
If yo relax the weight limit you should definitely look at the New Zealand Macpac Olympus – long regarded as a king among tents. Mind you, any tent of this class is going to cost you many bikkies.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on how an inner first pitch might be stronger
> than poles threaded thru the fly
Nope. When the fly can slide over the poles, you have problems.
> would a Crux Storm with poles threaded thru flysheet – if it were commercially
> viable to make it that way – be necessarily better than what it currently is
Tricky question. The Crux Storm is NOT a tunnel: it is a modified dome. As such, pitching it in a howling storm can be tricky. Bent poles are a real possibility with this whole class of tent. Half way through the exercise you have an unsupported un-braced un-guyed tent flapping madly while you try to get the poles in place. Difficult.
Can you pitch a tunnel in a howling storm without problems?
The big difference is that you put all the poles in the tunnel while the tent lies flat on the ground. This can be done by one person alone, although having a helper is useful. Getting the tent up is then swift and safe. You reverse this for pulling the tent down. I emphasise: been there, done that, at over 100 kph.
Clearly, we are going to have to survey this market at some stage in the future. OK, noted.
CheersSep 10, 2010 at 11:38 pm #1644710
> Is the ripstop denier in the SL3 generally considered more resistant than
> the Silnylon or Cuben Fiber?
This is an interesting area where experience is largely anecdotal. However, I'll give my 2c.
I have had silnylon in a 100+ kph storm with no problems at all. I am not sure I would be game to use Cuban in this manner. WHY not?
Because the huge elasticity in silnylon allows it to absorb sudden gusts without creating extreme localised stress. It stretches, and recovers. The non-stretch nature of Cuban does not do this, and I suspect you could reach burst-strength at some critical point on the tent fabric quite easily.
A PU-coated ripstop which is *heavier* than silnylon could be as strong or stronger. I say 'could be', not 'will be', because we know that PU-coated fabrics are NOT as strong as silnylon on a weight-for-weight basis. The PU coating can actually weaken the fabric: it localises stress.
The silicone coating on the other hand actually diffuses stress, making a silicone-coated fabric stronger under some tests than the uncoated base fabric.
CheersSep 11, 2010 at 12:53 am #1644713
Roger: Do you have any sense of what double poling adds to the wind equation? It makes sense that it might double static load capacity (ability to support snow) but I don't think the same could be said for wind resistance – though it must help some too I'd assume.Sep 11, 2010 at 12:58 am #1644714
Have a look at the Wilderness Equipment First Arrow… it is a classic 2 1/2 person 3kg tent that is well known in Australian alpine bushwalking. IMHO it is superior to the Macpac Olympus another well known tent downunder. Ooops which I see Roger has already held up.
I have had mine handle typical hostile mountain conditions in the European and Australian Alps. The guy lines attachment and pole sleeves are the most bomber thing I have seen in a tent. And the little features make the usability and livability quite amazing. I have never seen anything to come close in the Alpine tent stakes.
WE First Arrow in Eastern Himalaya
Code=WE1ACOMSILSep 11, 2010 at 1:03 am #1644716
I'm interested in the Vaude Power Odyssee as well – though I've also seen reports that the weight is significantly understaded (I think someone said it was 2.85 kg which is still OK for what is probably quite a solid tent). Not much info/reviews on it tho :(Sep 11, 2010 at 1:43 am #1644717
This is interesting too… given that the manufacturer identifies other 2 and three pole tents in their range as not winter tents:
Of all the tents mentioned so far and discounting the single walled ones (because I'm not sure how livable they are outside of winter) I have to say the Hilleberg Soulo appears, on paper, to be the "best". good heritage (no question marks over whether it's decent or not), exoskeleton – as easy (probably) easier than tunnels to put up in wind.
Keep the suggestions coming though :)
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