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Cuben Tent Fly


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  • #1623143
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Yeah I think so. I was mulling over the grommet issue for a bit today and thought I might be able to use a rubber insert of some sort. A small but fat O-ring could be just what I need. This would be much more elegant solution than a cuben cap. I'll do some looking around and see what I can come up with. Thanks!

    For the guyout spots that I added yesterday, do you guys think they are strong enough as they are? Or should I add a way of attaching the fly to the poles under the guyout? On the original fly there is a velcro loop that connects the fly to the poles directly under the guyout spot. I could do the same but that would add a little weight and require some seam sealing and I'm not sure if it's necessary. In all my years of camping, I've never really been in a rough storm where I needed to guyout my tent so this is hardly my area of expertise.

    #1623153
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    In my thinking guying out just the fly isn't as important as guying out the poles. Having a way to connect the poles to the fly at the guyout point will give stability to the poles (where it is needed) instead of just the fly

    That said i have only been in 1 storm my entire life where that much stability would have been nice to have. The tent was a POS and was blown flat on top of us. You probably don't NEED to change anything, but should see a jump in stability if the poles are given that extra support.

    The nice thing about the o-ring is you can try it without much effort and if it doesn't work as you desire you can just make the flaps like you planned.

    -Tim

    #1623196
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Dan,
    Have tried half inch acetal O rings attached by quarter inch wide nylon woven strap (similar to boot laces) sewn to the canopy or fly edge with good reinforcement. After a fair amount of use and tension, the O rings degraded and broke, so now the guys connect directly to the original nylon loops.
    Was trying to be fancy or something – waste of time & weight.
    Sam

    #1623235
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Dan

    > For the guyout spots that I added yesterday, do you guys think they are strong enough
    > as they are? Or should I add a way of attaching the fly to the poles under the guyout?

    That depends on what sort of weather (wind) you want the tent to handle. Without the attachment between the poles and the fly the tent can and will flatten under high wind, despite any guy ropes. The poles will slide sideways and twist and buckle. There are plenty of YouTube videos of that happening.

    Fwiiw, every one of the tents I have made over the years has a full pole-sleeve attached full-length to the fly for the poles. Works very nicely for me.

    Cheers

    #1623257
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    Roger,

    In the tent Dan is working on he can't have full sleeves so do you think the solution used on the original fly (velcro) is a workable solution or is there a better way for Dan to connect the poles to his fly? I agree that the max stability will be reached when the poles are strengthened by guying out. I am just not sure if velcroing them to the fly really achieves this and am genuinely interested in your opinion of a better (yet still workable in this design) way to gain that max stability.

    -Tim

    #1623347
    Jim Colten
    BPL Member

    @jcolten

    Locale: MN

    This seems to be my day for replying to Tim's questions:-)

    Regarding velcro for attaching a fly to tent poles: I'm really not a velcro fan (it grabs when I don't want it and releases when I want it to hold).

    However, we have a local "adventurer" with several decades experience canoe tripping north of the tree line (Cliff Jacobson) who teaches things that have worked well for him. One of those things is how to modify a garden variety tent to stand up to wind on the tundra (he usually uses a Eureka Timberline as an example). Part of the mods is adding extra guyout points that are backed by velcro that wraps around the poles. If it works for Cliff there must be good value in it.

    Also, hook and loop material is available with greater holding power than typical velcro. That may be worth looking for.

    #1623396
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    It looks like I'm leaning towards velcro loops to attach the pole to the fly unless something better comes along. Since I already added the guyout points I may as well finish the job.

    This tent is going to be used normally with Fibraplex carbon poles (they shipped today) which are less stiff than the original poles, so properly guying it out is probably a good option to have.

    #1623798
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    I got the door holders made yesterday. I think the pictures explain it pretty well. I bonded on two patches of cuben (one on each side), sewed a loop of nylon on the outside, a smaller nylon loop on the inside and then finished it with some spectra cord and these large cordlocks designed to be door holders which I grabbed off the original fly.

    Total weight gain for the 4 guyouts and 4 door holders has been 14g or 0.5oz, so I'm at 10.5oz now. I'll likely wind up at 11oz total once I add the velcro to the guyouts and seam seal the zips, guyouts etc.

    Door 3

    Door 2

    Door 4

    #1623905
    Rog Tallbloke
    BPL Member

    @tallbloke

    Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!

    Very nice work Dan. What is the original tent?

    #1623955
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    It's an REI Quarterdome T2. Originally it weighed 3.8lbs. It's 3.0 lbs now with this fly and it should be ~2.5 lbs once my Fibraplex poles arrive.

    #1624023
    Rog Tallbloke
    BPL Member

    @tallbloke

    Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!

    Thanks Dan. I'm really impressed with the excellent wrinkle free fit you have achieved on such a complex shape. Good luck with the lighter poles. I'd tape the ends to protect them from knocks. Would it be possible to adapt the pole junctions to take the tip of a tekking pole for extra support in high winds?

    #1624028
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    Dan:

    Not that you asked, but two thoughts…

    (1) I already said my spew about Fibraplex poles prone to breakage elsewhere — but one other thing to note is that you can also expect Fibraplex carbon fiber poles to flex significantly more than aluminum poles in winds above moderate.

    (2) For holding doors open or releasing to close, I've found nothing faster/easier than two short strips of velcro.

    EDIT: Forgot to add my voice to the chorus: Excellent work. Very, very impressive!

    #1628699
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Well I finally got a chance last night to test this fly out in the wild. I've been a little busy lately with a surfing trip and a few fishing expeditions.

    I hiked up to 4700 ft (from 2000 ft) and set it up near the treeline in moderate winds. It was quite windy when I was setting it up so I was a bit nervous…mostly about staking my tent down securely to the 2" of moss. Turns out it was a non-issue as the wind died down shortly after it was setup. I got some rain in the night which the fly handled well. It didn't seem like any got through the grommet holes above the doors. Even if it did, it would likely just drip down into the vestibule unless the rain was really howling. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to pursue adding O-rings or just leave it and I could always slap some duct tape over the grommets if a huge storm is rolling in.

    Only issue so far is the SeamGrip that I used to seal the stitching at the zippers. Unlike Hysol, this stuff remains a bit sticky even weeks after it's been applied. If it touches another SeamGrip covered spot then it sticks pretty well and it's scary to peel apart for fear of delaminating the cuben. Hopefully the worst is over.

    Campsite Pics:

    Madely 2

    Madely 1

    #1628729
    Paul Siegel
    Spectator

    @paulsiegel

    Locale: Southern Appalachians

    Dan, I've always dusted the seams I've sealed with a bit of climbers chalk. They don't stick after that. Might be something to try.

    #1628856
    BER —
    BPL Member

    @ber

    Locale: Wisconsin

    Nice job Dan. I have been mulling over a similar project on a BA tent for some time, but keep being hampered by the cost/weight savings ratio and the lack of spare time.

    Good to see someone doing this though and yours looks great.

    Given the lack of stretch of cuben, have you noticed any difficulty maintaining a taught fly?

    Any thoughts about replacing the floor of your tent with cuben as well? I have been searching to see if anyone has done this and whether they have durability concerns and difficulty bonding/sewing netting to the cuben.

    #1628931
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    "I've always dusted the seams I've sealed with a bit of climbers chalk."

    Excellent. I'm not a climber but a friend left his climbing bag at my house recently. I zipped it open and presto! climbing chalk right on the top. I dusted the seams, so we'll see how that goes.

    "Given the lack of stretch of cuben, have you noticed any difficulty maintaining a taught fly?"

    There's not much you can do about the taut-ness of the fly one it's built. If you nail the shape during construction, then it'll be perfectly taut every time in the field. If the fly comes out a bit saggy in areas, then no amount of additional tensioning is going to significantly improve that. If it was really saggy, you could probably cut and overlap the material to remove some sag. Essentially, cuben requires more attention to detail during construction than nylon, but it also rewards you with an excellent fitting product if you get it right. Once built, it is what it is. For my fly, most of it fits excellent. The only area that is a bit loose is the left side of each vestibule. You can sorta see this in the picture below. Thankfully cuben is not a noisy material (unlike spinnaker), so it doesn't really matter if this flutters in the breeze a little.

    taught

    "Any thoughts about replacing the floor of your tent with cuben as well? I have been searching to see if anyone has done this and whether they have durability concerns and difficulty bonding/sewing netting to the cuben."

    I've been mulling this over. My inner tent (21oz) weighs more than everything else combined (fly, poles, stakes, tent sack). If I had the skills, I would love to remake the entire inner tent in solid (0.45oz?) cuben, and then I could actually sell the original tent since I have Fibraplex poles too. The problem is that sewing is a weak skill for me, and the original inner would be pretty darn hard to replicate with it's circular door zips and countless clips to attach it to the poles etc. That has me thinking about just replacing the floor.

    If I did replace the floor, I would leave an inch or so perimeter of the original floor still attached to the netting walls so I've got something stronger than netting to attach the cuben to and so I wouldn't need to resew the zippers. FWIW, Zpacks has made some Hexamids with cuben floors sewn to the netting but I haven't seen the details of the construction.

    If I do it, my basic approach would be:

    1) Acquire 3 yards of 1.5oz (not 0.74oz) cuben from Zpacks ($87).
    2) Turn material into a basic rectangular tub shape by folding it at the corners and sewing (or bonding or both). Seam seal if necessary.
    3) Reinforce corners and then add stake out points with grommets for the poles to attach to.
    3) Probably unnecessary, but I would fold the top edge down with a 3/4" overlap and then bond this to double the thickness where it's going to be sewed to the rest of the inner.
    4) Cut original floor off of the tent, leaving a 3/4" or so perimeter to sew the cuben to.
    5) Sew new floor in place with a few rows of stitching by sewing the double thick 1.5oz cuben to the remaining nylon perimeter of original floor. The would be extremely strong and in no risk of tearing out or even enlarging the holes.

    You could do the same thing with lighter cuben, but 0.74oz cuben uses mylar membranes that are only half as thick, so I'd have some worries about abrasion leading to the cuben delaminating. If you always use a groundsheet, you could likely do this. I don't use a groundsheet.

    One of the things holding me back is that I don't know how much my current floor weighs. All the REI website says is that it's 'coated ripstop nylon. I used their Live help and the rep told me that it is 30 denier nylon. That seems a bit light to me (I would have guessed 50-70D), but if it's true then the floor likely isn't much heavier than 1.5oz/yd now. What is 30D PU coated ripstop nylon? 2oz/yd? 30D silnylon is only ~1.5oz/yd. If they're right and it weighs 1.5-2oz/yd then I'm not really save much weight. However if they're wrong then I could potentially save 6oz if it's 3oz/yd 70d nylon.

    My tent floor is approx. 84" x 50" plus a 4" bathtub equals 5336 square inches or 4.1 square yards.

    Regarding the actual performance of 1.5oz cuben as a floor, I like that it would be entirely waterproof and that it's no more slippery than my current floor. Slippery-ness really annoys me with silnylon. My only concern would be the abrasion resistance of the bottom mylar layer. I think it would prove to perform adequately well in this area, but we won't know for sure until more people are using it. One could always keep the original floor on hand to sew back on, should the cuben prove unsatisfactory.

    #1629078
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    I suppose if someone made a tentfloor "footprint" out of cuben and used it for a season, it might give a pretty good indication of how a cuben floor would hold up.
    Sam

    #1629084
    Scott Van Doeselaar
    BPL Member

    @vandoe

    Locale: Southern CA

    I have two completely cuben tents including the floor. I use a poyly cro ground sheet from GG and I have had no issues with the floor. You can also bond nanoseeum to the cuben quite well also. Create a half inch overlap seam and then take a 1 inch strip of cuben over that joint covering up the nanoseeum. This sandwiches the mesh between two layers of cuben. One tent has gone through 3 seasons already.

    #1629162
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Scott, is this using 0.7oz cuben?

    #1629195
    Scott Van Doeselaar
    BPL Member

    @vandoe

    Locale: Southern CA

    Dan,

    This was CT0-6K-08. The vendor quoted this to me at .51 per sq. yd, but I think this is the same stuff everyone is calling .7 sq. yd.

    #1629207
    BER —
    BPL Member

    @ber

    Locale: Wisconsin

    At least according to what I think is Cubic Tech's most recent product spread sheet (11/17/09), CT0.6K.08 weighs in at 16.2g/m2. I calculate this at 0.47oz/yd. But I understand that they change their specifications from time to time.

    Either way, great job! Looks like a lot of work and a lot of expense for a few ounces, but comes with the satisfaction of being hand made and looking great.

    #1629219
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    the .74 stuff is CT2K.08.

    Here are the specs from the sheet i have

    $18.73 CT0.3K.08 11.4gsm -.336 ozyd2
    $19.61 CT0.6K.08 15.8gsm-.465 ozyd2
    $20.25 CT1K.08 17.4gsm-.513ozyd2
    $21.33 CT2K.08 25.4gsm-.749ozyd2

    I converted the gsm to ozyd2 by multiplying the gsm by .02948 (per John H from CUBIC TECH)

    -Tim

    I just got the updated price/info sheet and everything for these products looks the same as my previous sheet and the info above.

    #1637673
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    The cuben fly has been working out well so far. I did decide to add a vent to the fly (not shown) to alleviate some condensation. The condensation has been significant but not extreme (ie. dripping) but that's to be expected with any vent-less tent fly.

    I'll post pictures of the vent soon. It's mostly done but my sewing machine is broken so I can't sew the velcro in place to finish the job. I'm doing a standard vent design with a little rod that props open an overhanging flap just like on the original fly. I used part of a 2g Terra Nova stake for the rod inside a velcro sleeve. I'm estimated about 0.25oz for this vent.

    Interestingly, there seems to be some sort of a greenhouse effect being created by the cuben. I could be totally wrong on this, but with the cuben fly the tent seems to be signficantly warmer inside than the nylon fly…maybe I'm just crazy though.

    Recent use:Cuben Fly Corrie Lake

    #1686091
    Martha S.
    Member

    @kitfox

    Greetings, Dan:

    I've been trolling through old posts looking for and example of a MYOG fly and found exactly what I was looking for on this thread. You did a beautiful job and I'm encouraged to try my own project.

    A couple of follow-up questions:

    1. You were thinking about cutting the original floor out of your tent and replacing it with Cuben. Did that happen, and did the tent hold its shape? I've been thinking about cutting the floor out of mine and using a SUL ground cloth instead, but haven't had the nerve to take out the scissors yet!

    2. Did you get replacement poles and were you satisfied with the weight reduction given the cost?

    Many thanks, and again, a great job.

    #1686105
    Daryl and Daryl
    BPL Member

    @lyrad1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth

    Nice job. Hats off to your good work.

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