Insulating layers question

Personally, I would go with a good, windproof down jacket AND a fleece mid layer.

Depends on where the climb is, but I'll assume it's cold and dry.

In these conditions, a belay jacket is a great option. Something down or synthetic with a wp/b or water resistant outer layer. Underneath you can do a midweight fleece or synthetic insulation layer with your shell over it. The Belay jacket is for belays, time at camp, breaks, etc. It just goes over the rest.

Fleece is really heavy and bulky for its warmth. High-loft is the way to go.

GREAT articles on belay jackets and lots of reviews here, but you have to be a member to read them. Either way, pick synthetic (better for wet conditions) or down (lighter for the warmth) and find the best belay jacket to suit your needs. Sounds like you could layer this with what you already have for a great combo. When trying on belay jackets, wear your fleece and shell underneath to be sure it's sized correctly.

Have a great climb!
Doug

"Which would be the best option:"

Another possible option, a bit pricey but of the highest quality, would be a Western Mountaineering Meltdown Jacket over a mid weight Merino wool or Capilene 2 + Patagonia R1 Hoody base layer combination. The Meltdown weighs 17 oz and costs $340. It has an integrated hood. I'm assuming you have a WPB jacket to throw over both if things get really nasty.

Conditions should be mostly dry, and I favour down anyway for its compressibility and warmth to weight ratio… You are right in that fleece is too bulky.

I hope I can find something that won't break the bank! How much loft is "high loft"? 700-800s?

So, if I had the following layers available to layer up:

1. Base Layer (usually a zip neck, long sleeved shirt)

2. Mid Layer (usually a Power Stretch fleece top)

3. GTX outer shell

4. Down jacket (belay jacket)

would that be enough for summit, high altitude rest stops, and camp? I'd probably still carry a spare mid-layer, just in case.

I just am not that sure about the mid layers:

Mid-weight fleece top, as stated above?

Or would a vest be better, assuming I had a fleece jacket in my pack to wear over that if needed?

No fleece underneath the Meltdown jacket — wearing it right over the base layer?

I have a GTX hooded outer shell, which I will definitely be wearing. My idea was to get a down jacket that could be fitted over that so that delayering wouldn't be needed.

"No fleece underneath the Meltdown jacket — wearing it right over the base layer?"

The R1 Hoody replaces a typical fleece jacket in my system. It has a form fitting balaclava-style hood, a deep chest zipper for venting, and an excellent high-low grid moisture transport system. It is fleece with Capilene 4 panels under the arms. I would probably be wearing it most of the time over a Capilene 2 base layer on a climb like you are doing. I would throw the Meltdown over that combo at rest stops and in camp, as conditions warranted, and be prepared to throw a WPB shell over all of it, if necessary.

I guess you could size the Meltdown to go over your WPB jacket as well. My preference would be to have a lightweight, very breathable windshirt, e.g. Patagonia Houdini to go over the R1 Hoody if it gets windy/snowy while on the move. Then the Meltdown as needed and the WPB jacket as a last resort for really foul conditions. The windshirt is a lot easier to hike in than a WPB jacket, blocks wind and snow, and weighs only 3.5 oz or so. That is the sequence I use at all elevations and have found it to work quite well.

It sounds good and not too bulky, as your mid layers are thin.

I'd rather not buy new gear for the mid layers, if possible. The R1 looks nice, but I think my slim fit elastic fleece would do in this situation. For head protection, I have got a hat that covers the ears and a thin balaclava as well (if needed). Not to mention the hood on the outer shell.

My jacket is not one of the harder, heavier ones, and it's actually comfortable to wear while on the move in snow/wind conditions. It's a 2-layers GTX.

Windshirts: I go back and forth on those — I can see how they would be useful in warmer weather, but once you go that high, the outer shell seems to be more appealing. I have got a couple of lightweight ones I wear for running (full zip, no hoodies), would one of those suffice? Looking at the Houdini, it seems to be a lightweight, pretty thin nylon jacket.

> 1. Base Layer (usually a zip neck, long sleeved shirt)
Synthetic. Wool is fashionable, but $$$ and fragile.

> 2. Mid Layer (usually a Power Stretch fleece top)
Needed, especially in windy cold weather.

> 3. GTX outer shell
Scrap this. Too $$ and too heavy. Even the lightest PU-coated nylon jacket is adequate here to block wind and deflect water (and is required). Gore-Tex fabric adds nothing of value, despite their huge advertising budget. Yes, PU can breathe.

4. Down jacket (belay jacket)
Yes.

Cheers

Not to sound mean or anything, but if you joined an organized expedition and haven't been issued some sort of packing/equipment list by the company or at least someone affiliated with the company, I'd think twice about going.

Many years ago I had signed up for a week-long cross country ski trip across Yosemite National Park in March. The agency sent out a very specific equipment list for each participant, and there was some kind of stern warning if we showed up with something missing. On the afternoon before the start, we showed up, and the two leaders were there, but they had little to say. We asked if they were going to check out our equipment against the list before we started. Their response was, "What list?"

The leaders were completely unaware of the list. When we showed them the list and all of our equipment, they went through it and told us to toss half of it.

–B.G.–

"> 3. GTX outer shell
Scrap this. Too $$ and too heavy. Even the lightest PU-coated nylon jacket is adequate here to block wind and deflect water (and is required). Gore-Tex fabric adds nothing of value, despite their huge advertising budget. Yes, PU can breathe."

I don't know about this one, Roger. He's going to be at 16,000' on a climbibg trip. I personally would not want to trust a lightweight PU jacket where abrasion, among other things, could quickly make hash of a lightweight jacket. A good WBP for that kind of endeavor will have reinforced elbows and shoulders, with good reason.

If it's a high level snow hike, that's another situation, and I will withdraw my comments, but for real climbing…

I'll leave it to the OP to clarify, if he wishes.

Cheers

Are you climbing Büyük Ağrı Dağı?

If you are, send me a PM (Personal Message) or email me and I will send you a list of what I took up that worked well: biointegra[AT]me[DOT]com

It is a very dry area with more bullet-proof ice than snow.

@Rick: When traveling to some remote mountainous regions of the world, occasionally government approved guides are required and may or may not even speak your language, let alone have a packing list available for you.

Hi Tom

> I personally would not want to trust a lightweight PU jacket where abrasion, among
> other things, could quickly make hash of a lightweight jacket. A good WBP for that
> kind of endeavor will have reinforced elbows and shoulders, with good reason.

Good point. I was not allowing for serious rock climbing.

In that case I might look at a more 'agricultural' jacket, rather than Gore-Tex. I have one such which weighs a ton (so to speak), but my wife wears it around the farm in the rain. It's showing zero wear so far after many years!

On the other hand, I have used silnylon in wet Australian scrub without damage. And trust me, that scrub is rough. I have also used light PU-coated nylon in wet scrub (Peter Storm) with great success. Thinking about that, I do remember some abrasion marks on the knees of one pair of WP trousers, but those marks did come from a few 'unfortunate' incidents on tilted ice. Did more damage to my knee than the fabric. It seems the wet smooth surface does slide well.

Tricky question. Of course, if you have porters carrying everything … why upset the local economy?

Cheers

Yet another reason to not go.

"> I personally would not want to trust a lightweight PU jacket where abrasion, among
> other things, could quickly make hash of a lightweight jacket. A good WBP for that
> kind of endeavor will have reinforced elbows and shoulders, with good reason.

Good point. I was not allowing for serious rock climbing."

If baggage horses are going up, how serious of a rock climb can it be? Given what OP wrote up above, a UL layering system will do the job.

Re. shell — OP mentioned the Patagonia Houdini. That's what I wore up to Mt. Everest base camp at !7,200'. OTOH, if there's a chance of rain and OP does not have reasonable access to the horses and his gear, then I would suggest a light weight wp/b jacket rather than a wind jacket.

They did send us a list, but not too specific, hence my coming here to ask for some input.

I do not expect to have access to the luggage at all until we set up camp at the end of the day. So that is not part of the equation.

For my other trips, I engage in packing as light as possible. But this one is a bit different, so weight is not the biggest concern.

Even so, I'd rather not take too much stuff. Just trying to decide what would be the best combo.

(And yeah, what aaron said)

Yes, Aaron, that is it.

Will PM (or e-mail) you soonish.

MT:

Try to find out about the condition of the trail. If it's mere trail hiking (even if laborious) — then UL layering will be fine.

It's a climb, but not a too technical one. Altitude is more of a concern than anything.

As I said before, the jacket I *already* have is perfectly fine and does not feel heavy at all.

I just wanted input re: insulating layer, which I got.

It's mostly a rocky, dusty mountain (typical volcanic terrain). It'll be more of a steep and strenuous climb than a technical one. There is a glacier for the last hundred metres, and that is it.

Cold and wind are the bigger concerns here.

In that case, a UL wp/b shell plus a lightweight inner layer will suffice. Bear in mind that the low temps occur at night — esp. the few hours before sunrise — when you will be safely cocooned inside your tent and sleeping bag.

You won't need to dress for the absolute lowest temps. when doing the strenuous hike up.

Well, summit day will actually start a few hours before sunrise. ;) But your point is taken.

I think I will just carry a down jacket in my backpack as insurance (and also for camp), and that will be it.

Other than that, I'll work with what I already have!

See, those are the details that need to be considered.

I hate being cold, so I usually start off wearing 3 layers (base + insulation + shell). The trick is to be aware and stop and take off the insulation before actually feeling warm. Otherwise, it's just too easy to soak the layer with sweat.

In fact, methinks prevention is the name of the game:

1. put on a layer before you feel the chill.
2. take off a layer before you feel warm.
3. drink before you feel thirsty.
4. on ascend, take deeper breaths than you need.
5. slow down before you feel winded.