ultralight tent decision???

Scott,

You wouldn't need to bring the bivy all the time; it would just be when you are anticipating inclement weather. It would be cheaper than owning both a 3 season and a double-wall tent.

Eric,

You mention the Moment is very wind stable but drafty. You then recommend a double wall tent that weighs over a pound more. I guess the way I look at it, if the Moment is strong enough to hold up to serious winds, why upgrade to such a heavier shelter just for warmth?

I guess I see a breathable bivy combined with the more wind stable Tarptents like the Moment as a midway option between a three season tarptent and a double-wall bivy. Most people think in terms of EITHER a tarptent OR a tarp/bivy combo. But I think this only applies to 3-season conditions when dealing with the question of insect protection. In inclement weather, a tarptent doesn't offer much more than a tarp.

Another thing to consider is to use a Montbell Breeze Dry-Tec bivy. This is waterproof and almost as breathable as eVent, and it is relatively cheap. This would cut the wind and condensation, and give you a waterproof backup in the event of catastrophic tent failure. I know I ALWAYS sleep better at night when I bring my Montbell bivy, since I know I am protected no matter what happens to my tent (whether single or double-walled).

I would put the common shelter systems in the following order of protection from the elements:

tarp
tarp + bivy
tarptent
tarptent + bivy
double-walled shelter
double-walled shelter + bivy

It is the tarptent + bivy that I think is most underutilized and best for inclement weather and shoulder season backpacking.

"I am assuming the liner covers the two top vents?"
view of the top :

Franco

mmmm….not sure about this.

Thanks for the pic.

The versatility of being able to use it with or without the liner is nice, but if you are going to use it with the liner most of the time then why not get a tent with full double wall protection for less weight (ie. Big Agnes Fly Creek UL1).

"I would put the common shelter systems in the following order of protection from the elements:

It is the tarptent + bivy that I think is most underutilized and best for inclement weather and shoulder season backpacking."

But according to your list, a double wall shelter is going to offer more protection and it's going to be lighter and more comfortable than the tarptent + bivy. I don't really see the benefit of going with a tt + bivy over a double wall.

I see a lot of people seem to be concerned about condensation in this thread.
I do most of my camping in areas that are notorious for condensation.
I use a tarp/bivy combination when solo and tarptents when with my wife.
I have in the past used single and double wall tents when kayak and car camping.

I have had trips where it rained every day and nothing ever dried. I have camped on the top of mountains, inside of clouds during rainstorms, on wet grass. Condensation gets everywhere, not just inside the shelter, but on the outside, the leaves, trees, rocks, …

I have never had an issue with the condensation and have always expected it to be part of the experience. I have never seen the rivers of water that people seem to experience in their tarptents.
I am assuming that people are doing something wrong to achieve the amount of water they claim.

Are people blocking the ventilation?

Or is it that some just have a condensation phobia and are exaggerating the issue?

Double wall tents are not immune from condensation. There can be some reduction and less chance of getting clothing and gear wet, but the best thing is to just not let it bother you.

I suspect that most of the people who are having condensation problems are closing up too much of their shelter's ventilation in an attempt to trap some extra warmth in the shelter, or to keep stormy weather out.

I have, of course, made the same mistake. :)

Blocking the ventilation? I have had copious amounts of condensation on an open tarp. Ventilation helps but condensation cannot be avoided in some cases, certainly depending on the fabric. The inherent problem with small silnylon solo shelters is that the condensation will always be more pronounced in a smaller area and the probability of contacting wet walls with dry down is a real possibility (and a potential trip ending situation).

Hi David,

Regarding: "and a potential trip ending situation".

Although I have had a few small shallow pools of water in a tarptent in the worst possible conditions, a sleeping pad kept it from doing much exept a few damp spots on the parts of my sleeping bag that were touching the floor.
My bag dried out the next night from body heat, even thought it rained that night as well.

Gear choice is important. My sleeping bag has a water repellent shell. So it isn't going to draw moisture in like a sponge. Even if it did, it would take almost a liter of water to soak a sleeping bag enough to cause much concern.

I have never seen more than a few ounces of water from condensation.

I don't worry about any of my hiking clothes getting wet as they will still be warm when wet and I can sleep in them if I have to.

I could never see a reason for ending a trip over condensation.

"I have never seen the rivers of water that people seem to experience in their tarptents. "
Steven
I think that has a lot to do with our tollerance level
Sometime ago a member posted about his terrible experience with his leaking shelter (mind you it was a hose test…)
He described having two or three puddles on the floor after the test.
Everybody else : "Hear,hear!!!.
Months later he described those "puddles" as dime sized. Holy crap I dribble more than that on my pillow every night…
Franco

>Months later he described those "puddles" as dime sized. Holy crap I dribble more than that on my pillow every night…

Glad I'm not the only one…

There is more to condensation than single wall vs double wall.

Location, location and Location.

I have had some miserable nights with a tarptent pitched with a clear exposure to a clear night sky. Even with an entire wall of mosquito net on the front of my tarptent.

The same has been true of double walled tents, but the space of the second wall prevents easy touching of the condensation on the fly. It is still there.

If I am able to pitch under the trees with no clear view of the open sky, the tarptent isn't the massive producer of condensation. The double wall tent in similar locations is less subject to condensation as well.

Discussions of condensation without location information (open sky exposure) are not very informative.

I think this subject is covered in the Articles section where condensation is well discussed.

Dew is another form of water vapor condensation. Anyplace with a lot of dew is also prone to tent condensation if you pitch there, adding your breath water vapor to the natural water vapor just makes matters worse.

That open meadow I mentioned at the beginning of the message – it was full of dew in the morning. Sop was the tarptent – dew made from natural water vapor and exhaled water vapor.

"I think that has a lot to do with our tolerance level"

Absolutely! Mine is up to the point it begins to drip all over. However my tolerance level has decreased since becoming use to using a very breathable tent the last few years and thus experiencing very minimal amounts. Since I am now shopping for a waterproof tent, the time is "now" to focus on the problem and emphasize it to find a product to minimize it as much as possible.

On a slightly different note, I am a tad perplexed over the lack products made from such lightweight materials that are highly water-repellant such as "Rain-Shield" and "Dri-Ducks" fabric. C'mon, rain gear is made from the stuff. Why not shelters? There has been an amazing lack of innovation in fabric development over the past 15 years. Henry Shires is the only one who shown any innovation in this area. I don't understand the lack of imagination here combined with the failure to produce a product that folks are struggling with such as we are right here in this discussion.

"Holy crap I dribble more than that on my pillow every night…"

Must ………….. resist …………………. responding ………………..

"I am a tad perplexed over the lack products made from such lightweight materials that are highly water-repellant such as "Rain-Shield" and "Dri-Ducks" fabric. C'mon, rain gear is made from the stuff. Why not shelters?"

They have virtually no tear strength. Now, maybe if someone could make a cuben fibre reinforced DriDuck material, it would no doubt be a big hit.

I agree with John. I always carry a (3oz) bivy bag to use in my tarptent if the weather is bad. Protects against condensation drips, wind and wind blown rain while adding minimal weight. It also increases bag warmth.

"Now, maybe if someone could make a cuben fibre reinforced DriDuck material, it would no doubt be a big hit."

Not at all, I'm afraid.
The "Cuben " bit is the totally non breathable layer that is laminated on both faces of the chosen fabric.
Franco

Sorry, I meant making a DriDuck type fabric with spectra fibres embedded in it, not the acetate film.

I may be wrong, but even the most breathable fabric will not breath as well as an open vent in a shelter.

The amount of ventilation makes a huge difference and although some moisture laden air can pass though highly breathable fabric, it is still a very small percentage.

Breathable fabric shouldn't be able to compete with proper ventilation, unless you ignore laws of science:-)

I agree the condensation scare if overplayed. I have always camped many times in a single wall euraka zeus tent. (mesh door, large side vents, small top vent) I get condensation about 50% of the time, usually when there is little or no wind.

Typically I whip in inside and outside of the tent in the mornings, it takes about 2 minuets and I end up packing a much dryer tent than people with double wall tents. (they have similar condensation, but cant dry it as easily)

However, one time I woke up with a pool of water (1/2 inch) in the downhill side of the tent. I was in awe of how that much water could have gotten in the tent, it was a high humidity, light wind, light rain night. The end of my down montbell sleeping bad was sitting in the water. It was a little damp, but I dont think much moisture penetrated the DWR, the down seamed to be 80-90% loft as far as I could tell.

I have never felt threatened by condensation, but it can be an inconvenience.

i was in a double wall (kelty zen) battened down tight in a cold snap above Shepherd Pass one August about 15 years ago–it was probably high teens as everything was frozen very, very solid outside. more to the point, lacking ventilation other than the few inches around the edges of the rain fly, our condensation collected on the inside top of the fly, where it froze into a solid mass. when the morning sun hit it, we were greeted with rain inside the tent, which was of a surprisingly high volume, enough so we actually got colder and got up to get out in the sun and out of our wet, rainy tent.