Value of substantial suspension

[Rakesh Malik]

"In any event, does backpacking not take some level of fitness?"

It certainly does, but that doesn't mean that you have to be fit to start. The catch is that if you're not fit, then you'll have more trouble getting your pack to fit properly, so a lot of people who slow down in winter and gain weight have some trouble when they start up the backpacking season again.

It's also something to keep in mind when you're getting started, because if you size your pack to make up for your lack of fitness, you might have trouble with it when you get back in shape.

Maybe the secret is to carry your backpacking pack everywhere, and just keep a few bottles full of water in it all the time ;)

[Lynn Tramper]

I don't think fitness has much to do with how comfy your pack feels, nor even weight. I have substantial upper (and lower) body strength due to a few decades of heavy weights, bodybuilding, rock climbing and tramping, yet even a day pack kills my shoulders if it doesn't carry well. However, a good frame doesn't have to mean a heavy pack (these days). I have been quite happy with an Exos 58 as a lighter and more flexible alternative to the LuxuryLite. Not SUL perhaps, but plenty light enough that I don't notice the extra weight. However, even the Exos needs to be packed properly to prevent too much weight from pulling you backwards. The design seems to encourage poor packing practices!

[Ike Mouser]

don't you think if you had 40lbs of excess girth around your belly that could effect the way your pack carries?

[Lynn Tramper]

"don't you think if you had 40lbs of excess girth around your belly that could effect the way your pack carries?"

Well, first, I have only recently gained weight, but have had this problem with weight on my shoulders all my life, even when bodybuilding competition lean.

Second, I don't carry my excess weight around my gut. It's mostly hipbelt and below.

Third, it's only around 25lbs excess…

[Ike Mouser]

it wasn't about you, it was a hypothetical…"dont you think IF…"

[Rakesh Malik]

"I don't think fitness has much to do with how comfy your pack feels, nor even weight…. yet even a day pack kills my shoulders if it doesn't carry well."

Fitness can have a significant effect on the shape of your body, and therefore on how your pack fits. Ergo, fitness and pack comfort are closely related.

[Lynn Tramper]

"it wasn't about you, it was a hypothetical…"dont you think IF…""

Oh, I see. I don't know. Again, personally speaking, I carry my hipbelt below my waist, so it shouldn't affect how the pack rides, but having 40lbs of excess belly fat would not only make it harder to get up the hill, but harder to get in and out of tents, get off the ground and maybe even harder to tie your shoes! At least female fat doesn't get in the way quite the same ;)

From a balance point of view, excess belly fat may be beneficial. Kinda like using Aarn balance pockets!!

[Lynn Tramper]

"Fitness can have a significant effect on the shape of your body, and therefore on how your pack fits. Ergo, fitness and pack comfort are closely related."

As I said above, that is not my personal experience from when I was very fit. Any pack that put weight on my shoulders was uncomfortable, no matter how fit I was. YMMV.

[Ike Mouser]

yea i think most people when they complain about packs are talking about shoulder discomfort.

[Lynn Tramper]

"yea i think most people when they complain about packs are talking about shoulder discomfort."

Yes, and females (fit or not) seem more likely to complain of this in particular. However, when I used to carry up to 55lb external frame packs, most of the discomfort was over my hip bones, where the shear weight of the pack (half my bodyweight at the time) would rub my hipbones raw. Ouch. That, thank goodness is no longer a problem :)

[Jeffs Eleven]

I vote for a 'Y' or 'X' shape for women's shoulder straps. Being a man, I know my vote doesn't count, but…

If it worked, it would keep the straps on the shoulders well, and not rub or smash Breasts. (my keyboard is blushing)

-"Breasts" gets censored??? but, but… it the REAL name..

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I couldn't disagree with Dan Durston's comments more.

He says a heavier pack (by 2 lbs) W/ good suspension is going to fatigue you more at the end of the day than a less comfortable but lighter pack.

I guess this could be a pi$$ing contest between Dan & I but I agree with Osprey's motto that a good pack suspension, albeit weghing more, is STILL more comfortable "at the end of the day".

Personally I've tried the UL packs (GoLite for ex.) and found them to be unacceptable on a long day, or even a medium day of 6 hours on the trail when carrying 28 to 30 lbs.

"Fremeless" packs aren't fun to carry B/C after a while teh pad lets the pack sag down. Then you readjust it and 30 minutes later you're readjusting again.

My REI Cruise UL 60 has 2 tubular aluminum frames and weighs in at around 3 lbs. That's not UL but it IS light and beats my 7 1/2 lb. Dana Terraplane all to heck when carrying 30 lbs. of 7 days of food and 2 liters of water.

That said, my Terraplane is more comfortable at carrying 45 lbs.+ in winter.

It's all in the load and the SUSPENSION. i.e. good suspension = good comfort and minimal suspension = minimal comfort (with loads over 20 lbs.)

[Roger Caffin]

My 2c worth:

The three rules of pack selection are Comfort, Comfort, and Comfort.

Yes, your legs carry your whole weight up and down the hills, BUT they are not going to notice the difference between 80 kg and 81 kg. That's 70 kg for the walker plus 10 or 11 kg for the pack, depending on the weight of the harness.

Regardless of how much work your legs are doing, that's what they have evolved for, and they will cope. But your shoulders did not evolve to carry a pack or to carry an uncomfortable load – you will REALLY notice that.

Frameless SUL packs only work because the load on your shoulders is so low anyhow. Once you get above (say) 8 kg, your shoulders start to notice.

Cheers

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

"I couldn't disagree with Dan Durston's comments more. He says a heavier pack (by 2 lbs) W/ good suspension is going to fatigue you more at the end of the day than a less comfortable but lighter pack."

What I said is that if pack A is both comfortable and properly suited for the load, then there's no need to add several pounds seeking out something designed for loads much heavier than what is being carried. If pack A isn't comfortable then I totally agree that you should look at something else. I never said if pack A is uncomfortable then use it anyways because your legs are more important. Obviously avoiding the anguish of an uncomfortable pack is more important than a slight decrease in leg fatigue.

My point is simply to use the lightest pack that gives you the comfort and suspension you desire, rather than opting for overkill. You seem to agree with this because you're choosing to use your 3 lbs REI pack over your 7.5 lbs Dana pack.

[Rakesh Malik]

"As I said above, that is not my personal experience from when I was very fit. Any pack that put weight on my shoulders was uncomfortable, no matter how fit I was. YMMV."

That's the point — if you have a lot of extra belly bulk preventing you from supporting your pack on your hips, it rides on your shoulders, which hurts. This is definitely more of an issue for men, since men carry their flab right where the pack should rest in order to stay off of the shoulders.

[Lynn Tramper]

"That's the point — if you have a lot of extra belly bulk preventing you from supporting your pack on your hips, it rides on your shoulders, which hurts."

I suspect we may be cross-communicating. A poorly supportive pack puts weight on my shoulders because it does not have the suspension to adequately transfer the load to my hips. It has nothing to do with belly bulk as I've never had belly bulk, but agree that this could cause problems for someone who DID have belly bulk, but that would be true even with a well supported framed pack.

[Rakesh Malik]

"A poorly supportive pack puts weight on my shoulders because it does not have the suspension to adequately transfer the load to my hips."

That's precisely what I've been saying.

"It has nothing to do with belly bulk as I've never had belly bulk"

Which is why I said it's more common to be a problem for men than for women.

[YAMABUSHI !]

It seems as though you’re going for moding a trad backpack to make it UL but leaving the heaviest parts intact. You won’t get any significant weight reductions by cutting off the lightest parts off anything. The weight IS the suspension. The suspension is designed to manage loads that on their own would be unmanageable. If you cut out the bag from a trad pack and replaced it with a XL Cuben StuffSack you may knock off a few ounces maybe 1 pound. But you’ve left the rest of a 5-8 lb pack in place.

A marginal weight reduction at best.

With a lighter pack and lighter "Big Three" you will slash pounds off your total pack weight… Still conceivably you could have a lighter foam framed pack with removable support that facilitates load bearing of lighter nature.

[John Nausieda]

I have two external frame packs with traditional rectangular bags with pockets sitting here from the 70's. The aluminum one with bag weighs 3.5 lbs with a good hip belt. It was a $300 pack in its day. The next is a PVC frame with a nylon bag which weighs just about 2lbs. With Cuben or Sil nylon bags they would be no where close to your weights of 5-8 lbs. Plus they ventilate your back very well.

[Lynn Tramper]

"Still conceivably you could have a lighter foam framed pack with removable support that facilitates load bearing of lighter nature."

Yes, conceivably. I have yet to find such a myhtical pack (for me).

Rakesh, I think my misunderstanding arose from your comment that "Fitness can have a significant effect on the shape of your body, and therefore on how your pack fits. Ergo, fitness and pack comfort are closely related." For me they are not related at all, but obviously if a person has a big belly then losing the flab may help the hipbelt do a better job, but the pack still needs to transfer the weight adequately to the hipbelt. That would be my definition of "substantial". In other words, substantial enough to not cause me shoulder pain for the load I am carrying.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I'm not interested in dropping weight. I want to be as comfortable as possible. I'm to the point where I'm adding weight back to fine tune MY ideal setup. Of course, I want to be light as possible, but I think I'm pushing as far as I want to push into the light vs.equipped conundrum.

I think, after reading all the posts, that the consensus is it MAY be a little more comfortable, but if you're ALREADY comfortable, whats the point? It won't be all that much better on your shoulders and hips and will only leave your legs pushing a few more pounds.

The law of diminishing returns of comfort?

[Michael Davis]

Packs, like most things, follow the axiom, "the right tool for the right job." At least, that's how I justify a closet full of packs :-)

A summer overnighter vs a multi-day winter trip requires a different pack with appropriate suspension, volume, etc. For the summer overnighter, I use my 14 ounce ULA AMP. There isn't any suspension but that's fine for the situation. I did add a sternum strap but that's due to my SSS … Sloping Shoulders Syndrome :-)

For multi-night winter trips I use my 3 pound Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I need the volume as well as the sturdy but comfortable frame.

Niche packs include a 2-1/2 pound REI Venture 30. Not a lot of volume, trampoline frame for ventilation in hot weather and sturdy frame for weight hauling. Guess where I used it? Rim-to-rim Grand Canyon, hauling water like a buffalo! IMO is was the perfect tool for the job.

[Rakesh Malik]

"In other words, substantial enough to not cause me shoulder pain for the load I am carrying."

Of course — if the pack can't transfer load to the hip belt, then it's crap and all bets are off.

If it's a properly designed pack but you can't get the hip belt to stay up on your body, then there's nothing the suspension can do to keep the weight of the pack off your shoulders. Flab doesn't provide much support. :)

I have a few friends who pretty much don't use their hip belts at all. In both cases they have a rather sizable belly in the way, but I'm just amazed that they can carry their packs at all, because they're carrying them almost entirely on their shoulders.

[YAMABUSHI !]

Ah I see. Well I suppose, if you’ve got your load down to a preferred weight, it makes perfect sense to fine tune a pack to that set load.

I do think you would be able to tell the difference, short term and after a long day. It’s just lighter, fatiguing you less over any distance.

But I find a greater value from lower weight than more stout support.

One of my typical loads of 17.5 lbs carries just fine in a bag with just a folded pad as support with little more than shoulder straps and light 2 inch webbing belt. I think its the way things are packed and a properly sized pack. I find the sturdier framed bag make me feel like Frankenstein, and far less agile.

When I said 5-8 lbs I was mentally referencing a Diesel Barrel larger size Exped pack.

[Jeffs Eleven]

OK bringing back an oldie: And pack weight be damned! My back hurts with 10lbs- I don't care if it added 12oz!

So I have a Zimmerbuilt pack and love it but hiking Glacier this year with 27lbs for 5 days I discovered that the hipbelt wasn't enough for me. (lil bitty 'wings' and webbing only) It cut into me a bit and the bottom of the frame dug into me on both sides. It made me bleed a bit even. sucked… My back is a POS so I have to put the vast majority of the weight on my hips.

When I got home I Googled REIs replacement hipbelts, mostly cause I know they sell a few different ones. I ended up getting this one:

http://www.rei.com/product/766120/gregory-3d-hipbelt (PS: I cut the worst-in-the-indusrty pockets off it)

It fits my sexy bod perfectly and slips right over the existing belt. I've used it a few times and I have to say that this is definitely the most comfortable I've ever carried a pack.

So to answer my old thread's ponderance, at least for me, Yes- the hipbelt is very valuable.

In fact, I used to put a lot of value in the lumbar pad, which my current system does NOT have at all. its just those beefy hipbelts, hanging on my iliac crests. For me this is invaluable, as I usually fiddle with my pack the entire hike, and have't really been comfortable, just dealing with it.

If anybody gives a poo I can post some pics of my mutt pack… Zimmerbuilt (non custom/ clearance bin) pack, Ohm hipbelt pockets, Gregory hipbelt

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