I have to buy Ber Canisters…. Crap

Mike,
Have you considered Wild Ideas and their rental program?

They have 2 sizes of canisters – 650 ci and 900 ci.

Rental charges are for Days on the Trail, not transit times.
If you need it a few days early, like for travel, let them know and they will ship early.

They are pretty easy to work with. It can’t hurt to ask them if you can get a “multi-canister discount”.

Just a thought.

That is a good thought Greg. I'm going to need at least 1 when I go now, so I'll have to buy. But I could buy 1 Bare Boxer and rent 2 or 3 Bearikades…

Their products sure look nice, but wow are they expensive.

I guess I would still have a similar question – 3 or 4 containers?

Edit – after looking at the rental cost – including to and from shipping I would be pretty close to the same expense as buying the Bare Boxers outright. Then I could have a fire sale in gear swap.

Yes.

Cheap, light, approved.

Pick Two.

Hopefully the Ursack will eventually be approved.
What a bunch of dunderheads.

We will be out 3 days, 2 nights (5 meals worth of food after day 1) with 6 Adults, 2 teenagers and my little guy. We typically eat well when we go out so we will have a little more food than normal

I guess I would still have a similar question – 3 or 4 containers?

One way to look at it is to use a rule of thumb. Wild Ideas seems to (loosely) estimate 100 cubic inches per person per day. Some postings at BPL say they can do somewhat better than that, but with careful packing (which does not seem to apply to you on your planned trip). I have noted that the rule is pretty close to some experiences that Bob G has posted.

You seem to be planning at least 2.5 days for at least 8 people. That would suggest at least 2000 cubic inches, which would be your Bare Boxer plus two rented Bearikade Expeditions. Suggestion: try mocking up that space and see how it works for you.

Note that the Bear Boxer Contender is 275 cu in — you would need about 7-8 of them if the rule is at all close. Not too surprising, since you will have 8 people, and each BB is rated for 3 days (one person).

I'm not sure how you count "little guy" and what impact "We typically eat well" will have, but the rule may give you a starting point.

Does anyone else have any comments on the 100 cu in per day rule?

— MV

Bob – That is a good starting spot. My 8 year old will eat as much as my wife if we let him and our teenage nephews will eat until I'm broke (assuming I'm paying).

I'm dehydrating all of our meals and we won't bring any pre-packaged freeze dried meals. A mock up may be the way to go. I could use some alum flashing to get an idea of the dimensions.

My thought is if a Bare Boxer 202 will provide enough room for 1 person @ 7 days I should be able to 2 people @ 3 days with plenty of room from 1 canister. But I'll try the mock up and if in doubt I'll buy 4.

Mike

You have Ursacks, right? And you know the volume of each of those, right? So you know the total volume that would be needed for your food if you loaded it into them.

Take that total volume, and figure that in a hard-shell canister you will get 80%-90% of the packing density that you had with Ursack. So increase your total volume number by 10%-20%.

Now choose one of the hard-shell canister products, and they typically have a specified internal volume. Divide your total volume number that was increased by this specified internal volume number, then round up to the next integer number. That is the quantity of them to buy or rent.

–B.G.–

My thought is if a Bare Boxer 202 will provide enough room for 1 person @ 7 days

Note that Bare Boxer is more aggressive with their duration estimates that Wild Ideas is. The big BB is advertised as good for 7 days; it is slightly fewer cubic inches than the Bearikade Weekender, which is rated at 6 days.

That's why you need to pay more attention to cubic inches than to the manufacturer's claim of a certain number of days.

— MV

"What a bunch of dunderheads."

Right on, Greg. RMNP is quite proud of its 20 black bears, and they'll go to great lengths to overly protect them. Except spend money to erect some bear poles. They even removed the ammo containers that were in half the campsites (hikers were using them as trash receptacles; those folks were dunderheads too).

But to be fair, RMNP is a relatively small park. And being so close to a metro area, it receives a lot of visitors each summer. So they have to do something to limit the traces of so many hikers/campers. But c'mon, they could set up some hanging poles, and let folks use their Ursacks, don't ya think?

Perfect math – I can do that. No need to mess around with flashing. If I went fairly conservative we would need 2.5 (round to 3) Ursacks, and that would leave a little room.

Calc = 650 ci*3 ursacks = 1,950 ci * 1.15% = ~ 2,200 ci / 608 ci Bare Boxer Champ = 3.5 containers.

Looks like I could go with 3 – 202 Champs and 1 – 101 Contender.

That works assuming the buy method – if I rented I could go with 1 purchased Bare Boxer and 2 rented Bearikade Expeditions.

Thanks,

Mike

Don't forget to allow room for non-food "smellables", such as everyone's toiletries, etc. That could be a noticeable volume for your size group.

–MV

>Don't forget to allow room for non-food "smellables", such as everyone's toiletries, etc. That could be a noticeable volume for your size group.

Agreed – I'll probably sneak an Ursack in with me just in case – at the very least I can store the cooking gear in there.

Chose compact food items:

stick pasta instead of elbow macaroni.

real rice instead of quick rice(be prepared for the extra cooking hassle).

Dehydrated fruit instead of fresh.

Maybe more cooking oil than you would normally carry.

etc….

Did you find this out by calling them or did you read it somewhere? I was planning on using an Ursack there this summer.

I googled "rocky mountain national park backcountry camping" and found out "bear canisters are required at all campsites BELOW treeline",so if you plan on camping in the really high country you might not need canisters. however,it would be a good idea to find this all out ahead of time.

Kevin:

http://www.nps.gov/romo/planyourvisit/backcntry_guide.htm

It is listed under the "At Camp" section, next to the second bullet point.

Re-posted from another thread for your convenience and information is my comparison chart below.
note: Garcia manufacturer does not post canister's volume.

Thanks for the chart, Keith. Very helpful. Bearikade generally kicks everybody else's butt in terms of lb/ci for a given class of canister.

This RMNP canister requirement is relatively new. I didn't have to use one for my 2007 trip. Sux.

Ursack sued SBBIG to allow Ursacks, but SBBIG outfoxed them and simply disbanded. Now Ursack has to sue each entity one at a time. Sigh. Did I mention that I hate canisters?

One trick — probably everybody knows this but what the heck — is that your first days food doesn't need to fit into the canister. Only what will be packed away at night (food + smells) needs to be in the canister. So, live large the first day my friend: french bread, fresh veggies, you name it.

Death to bear canisters,

HJ

I hate bear canisters, but I hate the alternative more. In the old days they probably would have gone with cyanide bait for bears like they did for wolves.

Ursack is not fool proof. If 95% of the users do it right that leaves plenty of fools feeding bears. Canisters aren't quite fool proof either but I think the foolure rate is lower.

Canister requirement is just one of the rules of the game. Accept that and move on with your life.

Is there a rental program in/near RMNP? For a short trip where you want to eat well I suggest more than 100 ci per night, so I'd go with 4 Garcia or similar sized cans.

Kevin – I had the discussion when I was booking my Backcountry permit. It is new – implemented last summer but I never bothered to find out if Ursacks were allowed.

Keith – great chart – I may try and update the chart to include the larger Bear Boxer – but that should be very similar to a Garcia. I would love to get a Bearikade but I'm not ready to tell the kid he can't go to college.

Thanks,

Mike

>Re-posted from another thread for your convenience and >information is my comparison chart below. corrected bear >canister comparison chart

Keith – how did you calculate your efficiency ratio?

Michael,

I updated my spreadsheet with the new bear boxer. Also, instead of calculating it's volume, I used their numbers. They also reported a lower weight than what I had. I don't know if they've lightened it, or if I got the weight off a retailer's website.

I also added a price-volume efficiency column. Both efficiency columns are computed by dividing the most efficient entry by the entry of the present row. That way, the most efficient entry shows up as 100%, and the rest are less.

Last I heard, the bear vault lock has been picked by an intelligent sow in the Adirondacks. They're working on a fix.
note: Garcia manufacturer did not post volume.

Keith,

Nice chart. Might want to take a second look at volumes, though.

According to REI the Garcia has only 614 cubic inches. (I did not see the volume in a quick look at the Garcia site.) While REI does not identify the model, they do give the same height and the same diameter. The 614 ci is more consistent with the Garcia claim of about 6 days’ capacity.

I would think that you should use the manufacturer’s (or other reputable source, such as REI) volume whenever it is less than your calculated value (they are unlikely to understate the true volume).

There are, of course, tradeoffs, including:

*) Their value is rounded off in some cases (notably the Bearikades) — to some extent one can make an intelligent guess at that (“500” is probably rounded, while “614” is probably not rounded)

*) Your calculation assumes a cylinder. Several are not, notably Garcia and look-alikes (Counter Assault, Bare Boxer).

*) The dimensions are outer, and you are interested in inner volume.

I just checked, and here are some manufacturer’s volumes, all less than in your chart:
*) Garcia 614 ci (per REI) (not a cylinder)
*) BV450 440 ci (height probably includes the neck)
*) BV500 700 ci (height probably includes the neck)
*) Counter Assault 716 ci (not a cylinder)

There are two reasons to try to get an accurate volume
*) The comparisons in your chart would be more valid
*) That is the best way to compare capacity (not manufacturers’ # of days, some of which are more aggressive than others)

–MV

Bob,

It's been a while since I made the chart and I don't remember my rationale for choosing a computed volume. It may be because not all the volumes were available from the manufacturers, or, as you suggest, manufacturer's data may be "enhanced".

Whatever the reason, I updated the above chart to use manufacturer's volumes. I requested a figure from the manufacturer of the Garcia and will add their number to the chart if it is forthcoming.

Keith,

Sounds good.

I'm guessing that the manufacturer's numbers are pretty accurate. One sign is that they are all noticeably less than the computed enclosing cylinder volume, and I doubt they would understate their own volume.

The only exception to that is Bearikade, and those volumes are obviously rounded ones, not dishonest. Computing those is probably close, because they are a cylinder, and their walls & top are thin. I'd go with the computed values for them, since those values are a little less than the manufacturer's volumes.

Garcia — I believe the REI 614 number. The amount it is below a cylinder is reasonable, and I when I was looking around I found one of Garcia's competitors comparing Garcia as 615 cu in. Pretty good confirmation (unless they are just rounding the REI data).

The main exaggerating I have noticed is Bear Boxer's claimed number of days, especially for the Champ (claimed 7 days for 608 cu in). Otherwise, everyone's advertised number of days seems to be right around 100 cu in per day.

— Bob