group backpacking gear

[Konrad .]

You bring up good points, and in the back of my mind I was also figuring that small silt was probably passing through my coffee filter and hence clogging the core. Just to be clear, it was one of those paper coffee filters and not a mesh one…but even then, I have no idea how many microns the pores of the paper filter will keep out. But again, I agree with you, especially since cleaning the filter would temporarily restore its speed. So i guess my question is this? What to use as a prefilter? MSR only supplies a piece of foam to cover the inlet, which is even more porous than my DIY paper coffee filter. A cotton bandana would have been more porous as well. Roleigh once linked us to some automotor oil filters made of cloth that filter out down to a pretty significant micron…maybe those

[Scott Toraason]

Sea to Summit makes a 10 liter sub 2.8 oz folding bucket that is great for these types of situations. The bucket is stable on level surfaces and will do two things, first; it will let the silt and particulates settle to the bottom of the bucket in five to ten minutes so one can pump less silt filled water, and second; one can take the water and pump to where it is most convenient for you.

Just thoughts for your consideration that have helps me extend the times I have needed to scrub my filter, especially for glacier fed streams.

[Bob Gross]

"That the canister stoves generally put out more power than the white gas stoves is by now fairly common knowledge."

I would suggest that you put an MSR XGKII with a full fuel bottle up against your favorite butane canister stove with a full fuel canister. Turn them both up to full with huge water pots to boil. I get something around four hours of full flame on the MSR.

–B.G.–

[EndoftheTrail]

Most all prefilters I know are the fine mesh types which only serve to block out visible stuff. Not a "cure all" but the MSR Siltstopper is one of the better prefilters out there.

[Scott Bentz]

I've done a lot of hiking in groups, i.e. scouts. I think the best way to travel with a group that is not accustomed to lightweight is to just take 2 stoves, a 2 liter pot and 2 8 oz. canisters. If you would like to feel safe have someone take one 4 oz. canister along. You can heat a lot of water with 2 stoves. We usually cooked a meal at night and some hot chocolate and some water for oatmeal in the morning. You could get away with one stove if you wanted to really save weight. Just share the weight. I personally use Esbit or Alcohol for solo use but for me a canister is the way to go with a group.

As far as filters, I have not used a filter for a loooong time. I just use Aquamira Liquid or any of the brands of Chlorine Dioxide tablets. For years we just used household bleach and I don't remember any bouts of sickness. For me, the Chlorine Dioxide is the way to go. I love dipping my bottle in the water, popping a pill inside, and just keep going while the group at the water source is still pumping. It's the only way to go. Your water sources may be quite different than those I encounter here in the west. I have also used a Steripen Journey but would not rely on it without a backup.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

Yes, the XGK is very powerful. However:
XGK Minimum Weight 13.2 oz / 374 g
XGK Packaged Weight 1 lbs 1.2 oz / 489 g
Snow Peak GST100 78 g

We are, after all, keen on light-weight gear.

Cheers

[EndoftheTrail]

Just throwing in something different…

Considering it's only 3 nights — for us UL hikers, this isn't going to be a very heavy load at all. How about you three just bring your own stuff and then not have to worry about apportioning, timing, etc. Also, on the outside chance that someone gets lost or hurt, each one of you is self sufficient.

[Bob Gross]

Roger wrote:
"Yes, the XGK is very powerful. However:
XGK Minimum Weight 13.2 oz / 374 g
XGK Packaged Weight 1 lbs 1.2 oz / 489 g
Snow Peak GST100 78 g

We are, after all, keen on light-weight gear."

I expected that kind of response. Those numbers are meaningless because neither stove can function without its fuel source. So, do the math with numbers based on, let's say, four hours of fuel in bottles or canisters. Then, I don't know about you, but I have to figure in a cost factor on fuel. I hate to use a butane canister that has to be disposed of.

The one thing that I do like about a butane canister stove is that there are fewer moving parts. Also, Everest climbers like them, because at extremely high elevations, the whole butane vaporization issue when cold becomes less and less of a problem. However, we don't get over 20,000 feet very often these days.
–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

I started with a white gas stove, but there were too many accidents (NOT of my doing!). A burnt pack, a burnt sleeping bag, a nearly burnt me …

I switched to kero for many years. It stinks, and requires very careful priming. And I found it uses about double the weight of fuel compared to a canister. Yes, I do have the records for this. Given the huge weight of the XGK, and the weight of any tank/pump combination, I find a canister system is always lighter. Yes, I have done the sums, and they are in the articles on the BPL web site.

I have never measured fuel consumption by the hour, only by the litres of water melted and boiled. I think I mentioned that one 450 g canister will last my wife and me for two weeks?

> I hate to use a butane canister that has to be disposed of.
Um – not sure what this means. I use up my canisters right to the last drop. If the canister has only a little left in it when I get home, it gets put in the day-walk department (about 9 g for morning tea for the two of us).
Once a canister is empty I put a great big hole in it, let it air for a week, then recycle it with other steel scrap.

Cheers

[Rod Lawlor]

It's funny, I used to be all upset about using, OMG, a throw away canister, even though they go in recycling. Then I realised that they contain less steel than the two cans of tomatoes that I used in the pasta sauce tonight. Suddenly I could sleep again.

(Yes I have plenty of experience with white gas. In fact I'm the only bloke I know who has worn out a Whisperlite International. The actual stove, not the pump.) Never had an accident with white gas, but I can state quite absolutely, categorically, that it's a really, really bad idea to use white gas in a Trangia. It's probably best just to believe me on this one, and not feel the need to check it out for yourself.

[Tony Beasley]

Some people recycle canisters by refilling them, I am not going to tell if I do, BUT THIS REQUIRES EXTREME CAUTION and is illegal to do in same places.

Tony

[James D Buch]

It is illegal to refill a "single use" fuel canister of the butane/propane type and to carry it by any public carrier (bus, train, airplane, ship, ….).

It is possible to design canisters that would be safe for recharging, but they would weigh more, and the certification process would be different and more expensive. There might need to be a recertification process as well.

The solution, to date, is the "single use container".

There must be an engineer or two here who are reasonably familiar with the applicable pressure vessel codes that can better explain it, including the potential for risk.

[Rog Tallbloke]

What about the cheap inline fuel filters you buy for motorcycles? Weigh 1/2 oz, take platy size hose, cost buttons.

[Roger Caffin]

> There must be an engineer or two here who are reasonably familiar with the
> applicable pressure vessel codes that can better explain it, including the potential
> for risk.

Can I be really really rude here? (Too right!)
There are three risks with refilling a single-use canister:
#1: Overfilling a canister can make it detonate on a hot day
#2: Joe Public, who could mistreat a block of high tensile steel given half a chance.
#3: Tort lawyers who want to get into the act

More seriously, hazards include:
* Overfilling the canister – it really could detonate on a hot day
* Damage to the neoprene seal in the Lindal valve, letting it leak on the shelf
* Rust on the outside of the Lindal valve, letting the seal to the stove leak
* Rust or damage elsewhere, letting the canister leak
* Stuff-ups while filling, putting propane/butane everywhere and risking a BLEVE incident.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

"More seriously, hazards include:
* Overfilling the canister – it really could detonate on a hot day
* Damage to the neoprene seal in the Lindal valve, letting it leak on the shelf
* Rust on the outside of the Lindal valve, letting the seal to the stove leak
* Rust or damage elsewhere, letting the canister leak
* Stuff-ups while filling, putting propane/butane everywhere and risking a BLEVE incident."

I think you've just come up with a novel way to become a serious contender for this year's Darwin Award.

Any takers?? ;))

[John Nausieda]

Yeah, But who is throwing out Coleman Powermax canisters against the day when the refilling portals open? And are they probably open now but sub rosa?The translations on Ebay are better than before about adapters. Granted this is beyond the pale education is still to be desired.Absent this how about a discussion of pressure in refills with a cautionary approach?

[sheila o]

RK…you can cut a plastic liter soda bottle in half and use that to collect and purify water. It doubles as a basin too. Or just use your cook pot in the same way. Metal or plastic doesn't matter.

[Roger Caffin]

> I think you've just come up with a novel way to become a serious contender
> for this year's Darwin Award.

I will disagree cautiously. After all, the factories fill these canisters by the tens of thousands. They do it safely. Nameless people have done it safely too – it simply requires that you do a proper engineering job of it.

Hey – people refill the bigger canisters with propane every day, and they fill LPG cars too. Same stuff!

Cheers

[Anonymous]

"it simply requires that you do a proper engineering job of it."

And therein lies the rub. ;}

[Barry P]

Sorry for late response, and back to the original question.

STOVES:
A few times I have fed 3 families (total of 12) off of 2 alcy stoves: a Titan Kettle and a 3C pan. Using shifts, they were all fed and done eating in a 40 minute time frame. We just kept the water boiling and adding to their freeze dried mix or ramen or oatmeal.

To go a little faster 3 alcy stoves for 12 people is nice which is what I do most of the time unless I’m with scouts. Our scouts each have their own alcy setup with a 6oz total kitchen weight. (pot, stove, wind guard, pot stand, spoon, matches).

Except for esbit, I have found the lightest option will always be alcohol. Liquid fuel will be the heaviest option; Canister is in between. The other exception is if your Canister stove weighs <1.5 oz, then at 2 hot meals/day of one pint of water/meal, canister will be lighter after 14 days (barely). This is if you look at the average weight/day and assume 0.75 oz (weight) of alcy is used per meal and 0.25 oz (weight) of canister fuel is used per meal.

FILTER:
We typically have one First Need Filter for every 5 people. Our groups have tried many filters and only 2 have not clogged on us in brutal backpacking scenarios: the First Need and the Vario. Both of these will filter water faster than a steripen and make the water taste good. However, in super dark ponds, the Vario did not take out all the color but the First Need does. It’s just a psychological thing but it helps me to drink clear water.

So we use First Need because:
1. filters fast so we can drink cold water. Oh yea.
2. takes the brown out of water.
3. they’re the only ones I can find who will publish/publicize their independent tests— even for virus removal.
4. Easy to tell when the filter is cracked.

Have fun group backpacking.
-Barry

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