MYOG: Knotless PCT Bear Bag Hang

[Addie Bedford]

Companion forum thread to:

MYOG: Knotless PCT Bear Bag Hang

[Robert Blean]

Bob I have a suspicion that you've not used the PCT method with a heavy food bag.

I guess the question is "how heavy is heavy?" I just went out in my backyard and hung 16 lbs (a good week's worth of food + sundries) with no problem. I had no feeling I was near the limit of what I could handle. (I admit it is not snowing, dark, and on a steep hillside.)

In particular, the clove hitch was no problem. It isn't hard to get the first half-hitch around the stick. Then pinch it and it's even easier to hold while you put the second half hitch around the stick.

(For those who are unfamiliar, this YouTube video on the PCT method does a reasonable job of tying the clove hitch at about minute 1:35.)

–MV

[Bob Gross]

I watched a group hanging their food in Yosemite's Lyell Canyon one time (before bear canisters). This was a group of 12-14 people, and they were going to Red's Meadow, so I think they were out for 5-6 days. That's a lot of food weight. Anyway, they had two regular size Army duffel bags filled with food, and they had a line up over a steel cable between two trees. Three or four guys were tugging away strenuously trying to get those heavy bags up. I couldn't bear ( ! ) to watch, so I just hung up my own little stash.

–B.G.–

[Josh Taylor]

Bob (Blean) I think regardless of how easily you can perform the stick and hitch you will find my system easier. Will it be so much easier that you want to carry an extra item + gram of weight? That is going to depend from person to person. For you maybe not. Give it a shot though and let me know what you think. I like the constructive criticism!

[Jim Colten]

A clove hitch in and of itself is not hard to tie

There are two kinds of people in the world …
1) Knot People
2) those who are not
Group 1 people need only see a knot tied once or twice and it's their for life whereas it is near impossible to teach group two how to tie even a simple clove hitch … and don't even think about showing them a bowline on a bight or the crown of an end splice!

[Bob Gross]

That video clip is good enough, except that the guy should have used something that looked like a food bag. Instead, he used his rock bag. I knew what he was trying to do, but some complete newbie might be confused.

–B.G.–

[Josh Taylor]

Actually that was a stuff sack not my rock bag and I use that stuff sack on occasion to hang food.

[Robert Blean]

That video clip is good enough, except …

I quite agree; I was conscious of that. I chose it because it does an OK job of showing tying the clove hitch around the stick.

Here's a video that does a better job of illustrating the PCT method, at the cost of not doing a good job of showing tying the clove hitch.

Note that neither video points out related facts, such as that it would be best to hang your food away from your camp, and from a tree that other backpackers do not use (so the bear has no reason to think of your tree as a "food tree").

–MV

[Josh Taylor]

Oops. Thought you were referring to my vid.

[John S.]

Delay's version of tying the clove hitch under a load is still not as easy as mine (published right here in July '09 btw ; D) since he is switching hands, holding a rope against the stick (with heavy bag is harder), etc.

"(For those who are unfamiliar, this YouTube video on the PCT method does a reasonable job of tying the clove hitch at about minute 1:35.)"

[Robert Blean]

Off-topic digression here …

Group 1 people need only see a knot tied once or twice and it's their for life whereas it is near impossible to teach group two how to tie even a simple clove hitch

You are right. In some cases I think it is just a matter of how good a person is at visualizing things. In other cases, I think that the person could do better by being taught better — more logically.

Even people for whom knots are hard, though, can learn them. For example, I cannot believe all rock climbers are gifted with knots, but they darned sure learn certain knots if they want to be safe.

You can go surprisingly far by thinking of bights and loops.

* A square not is just two intersecting bights, as are a bread knot and a granny knot. The difference between the square knot and bread knot is just which side the ends are on — that matters in many knots — square knot, sheet bend, and bowline are common examples of that.

* Both a sheet bend and a bowline are a loop and bight intersecting. Cut the big loop in a bowline and you cannot tell which knot you started with.

* A double carrick bend is two intersecting loops.

* A half hitch is just a loop around something. Two of them, around the standing part, is two half hitches. Two of them around a stick is a clove hitch.

* A "slipped" or "slippery" knot is just making the last step be pushing a bight through instead of the end. Such knots generally hold as well, and are far easier to untie.

* You tie shoelaces with a double-slipped square knot (or a granny knot, but the square will stay tied better).

As an example of thinking this way, consider a trucker's hitch. The easiest way to think about how to finish it is that you tie the end through the bight, formed by the initial slip knot, as a sheet bend — or, my preference, a slippery sheet bend (so it will be easy to untie). It is far easier to remember a tucker's hitch as a slip knot, finished with a sheet bend than to try to remember it a one big knot.

Making it easy to remember is not just a gimmick — I find a trucker's hitch much better for tying things down (including guylines) than any of the slipping knots (such as a tautline hitch). Done in the slippery way, it is easier to get really tight, just about as easy to adjust when needed, and far more secure.

etc

–MV

[Dave .]

I'm a knot snob. I admit it. It boggles my mind that there are backpackers who can't do an adequate PCT bear hang due to problems with the clove hitch.

But, really, aside me feeling self-superior because of my knot tying prowess, what I care about primarily is this: I want people doing good bear hangs.

Not because I care if their food gets eaten and their trip gets ruined, but because I don't think bears should be made to suffer because of human incompetence. (A fed bear is a dead bear etc. etc.)

So, to the extent that the PVC idea makes it easier for non knot people to keep their food away from bears, I say it's a great idea.

[Robert Blean]

So, to the extent that the PVC idea makes it easier for non knot people …

Agreed. But does it? I guess so, at least for the OP. I must say that I tried tying it around a rod and I found it (a little) harder than a clove hitch, because it is (a little) more complicated. A clove hitch is just two half hitches around the stick.

Delay's version of tying the clove hitch under a load is still not as easy as mine (published right here in July '09 btw

I agree that he was a little clumsy. How about posting your URL?

–MV

[Bob Gross]

Almost forty years ago, I was an assistant instructor in an Army rappelling school overseas. My task was to teach each student about four basic knots, and we had thousands of infantry students to handle, typically a hundred per day.

Once they had seen a specific knot tied about twice, half of them would be ready to go. Some, we would have to show over and over, maybe ten times, and still they couldn't get it. Some would try to fake it, and they would get a granny knot instead of a square knot. But we could not let them get on our rappelling cliff until they had mastered those four basic knots. Some of the students were such klutzes that to this day they use shoes with velcro closures.

–B.G.–

[Ed Jones]

Tying a "clove hitch" in the middle of a rope on a stick is no more than "throwing two half-hitches" around the end of the stick–roll the rope between thumb and fore-finger and it builds the loop, then drop it on the stick, cinch down and repeat=done. Just the way the driver would do with all those reins on the stage coach. Watch more westerns or grab a boy scout handbook. Cowboy

[Thomas Burns]

As a diagnosed dyslexic, I can say with absolute certainty that some of us are completely baffled by knots of any kind. My clove hitches simply come apart. I finally learned the imponderable concepts of left and right when I learned to drive. Left is against traffic. Thus, I deeply appreciate this method. I came to work at 5:30 am just so I could make the PVC dingus. I just made it and hoisted my food bag. Easy!

Thanks, Josh, from directionally impaired folks everywhere along the trail.

Stargazer

[Benjamin Luedke]

B.G.,
Do you know of a video or good text resource for that method?
Thanks,
BL

[Benjamin Luedke]

Never mind, found it online. Thanks anyway,
BL

[John Coyle]

Thanks Josh, I like it. Being ex U.S. Navy, I don't have much difficulty with the clove hitch, but I think your method is a good idea. Where I go backpacking (Northern California), an approved bear container is required much of the time, so I use a Bareboxer Contender (1.6 lb), odor proof sacks, or a combination of both even in areas that don't require a bear container. It weighs a little more but on the other hand it makes life simpler because you don't have to spend time finding the right tree, which is impossible above timberline, and risk snagging your food 15 feet in the air. Hanging food is definitely the lightest way to go, however.

[Bob Gross]

I have a 288KB JPEG image that shows the Double-Rope Counterbalance Method.

–B.G.–

[Kathy A Handyside]

Brilliant, Josh! And that's a great instructional video. You're really good at explaining and demonstrating. You'd be a great instructor. Thanks for sharing!

[Wesley Witt]

Why not just use an URSack???

[Bob Gross]

There are some places where the Ursack is not acceptable. Yosemite National Park is an example.

–B.G.–

[Frank Deland]

Clove hitch ( directions by dyslectic):
Hold line in both hands with the hands about a foot apart in fist with back of the hand up, in punch position. Twist your right hand, moving it to touch the left fist. Fingernails of the right hand are now facing up to your face.
The line is now in a loop. Note that the line coming out of your right hand is now under the line coming out of your left.
Place the loop over one end of the stick.
Pull your right hand back out along the line until you have enough line to make another loop the same as the first.
Place the second loop over the same stick end and over the previous loop. Pull tight with both hands going outwards.
Cove hitch is done.

[Thomas Burns]

Thank you, Frank. Your directions make better sense to me than any I've every seen.

Stargazer

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