MYOG: Knotless PCT Bear Bag Hang

For the not-knot people, cool gizmo.

For the knot people, using the PCT method, I am trying to see why a slip knot would not work in place of the clove hitch — with the stick placed in the loop of the slip knot. One loop around th stick instead of two and technically not as strong for the rope, but I still don't see why it should not be used. What is the reason ???

Cool- a slip knot is harder to get out and I think harder to tie-

Some descriptions of the PCT method do specify a slip knot. Just be careful to get the correct side slipping.

–MV

I think this is quite ingenious, but it is in fact a marlin spike hitch. you've permanently attached the marlin spike, which is the key difference here. You could probably use aluminum arrow shafts like the hammockers do and get the same result for less weight.

I think a MSH (marlin spike hitch) would solve much of the problem for those that struggle with a clove hitch.

With the PCT method, when you (or a bear) pull on the rope, the food goes up — away from you.

Paul,

You are correct — it is, in fact, a marlingspike hitch (albeit backwards). And the arrow shaft would certainly be less bulk. But there is a catch.

When tying the hitch, you need to be careful to load the correct side of the knot. The OP is loading the wrong side of the line. He evidently gets away with it because his "permanently attached marlingspike" has enough friction and the load is light enough that it seems to work in practice.

I am not sure you'd have the same success by doing it around something smooth, such as a pen or an arrow shaft — the knot might collapse, and that might have bad consequences. Which brings up another point — if the friction with an arrow shaft is enough for it to work in practice, then why not just use a stick instead of carrying any device?

And if there is not enough friction, then go to the real knot — it is just a slip knot with something solid (a stick) stuck though it. Just be sure the loaded line is the slipping part.

For the knot-challenged, would a slip knot be easier to deal with than a clove hitch is?

–MV

Thanks Thomas/Stargazer. Glad you tried it out and like it.

Bob,
"…if the friction with an arrow shaft is enough for it to work in practice, then why not just use a stick instead of carrying any device?"

From personal experience, it is sometimes difficult to extricate a "natural" "spike" from the loop. Many of the UL bear bagging lines get a little fuzzy with use, and when they wrap around a stick, especially one that is rough or still has bark, the two are like velcro.

I took and used a 4" section of aluminum arrow shaft for this purpose. It slides out easily. (I tried carbon fiber, but the cut ends always had tiny splits or splinters that would stab either me or the line.)

Here are some photos to show how to tie the clove hitch around a stick:

1 Hold the stick in your right hand (if right handed) so the line is in front of the stick.

2 With your left hand, grab the line below the stick. Pass the line under then over the stick so the line is to the left of the line coming down from above.

3 Now hold the stick in your left hand, putting your thumb over the line to hold it tight against the stick to hold it in place.

4 Twist the line with your right hand to form a loop.

5 Slip the loop over the right end of the stick and then tighten it against the hanging line and your have tied a clove hitch. See Photos:

http://community.webshots.com/album/577564490qeMyBE

NB. This method is used to make the clove hitch in the middle of the hanging line when it is being pulled by the weight of the hanging food bag, and your hands are reaching as high as possible above your head. Using the end of the line is not necessary.

"Almost forty years ago, I was an assistant instructor in an Army rappelling school overseas. My task was to teach each student about four basic knots … "

I think it'd be informative to know what the four knots were.

Thanks,
Bill

Shoot, Frank. The photos and explanation help quite a lot. Much appreciated.

I'm going out this weekend, and I'll try it both ways, just for fun.

Tom B.

"I think it'd be informative to know what the four knots were."

You expect me to remember those knots after almost 40 years?

Hmmm. There was a simple square knot and simple half hitches. There was a Swiss seat. There was a Prusik knot. Maybe another one.

We, the training team, had to visually check each trainee's Swiss seat before he went over the edge of the 110-foot rappell cliff. We trained thousands of Infantry troops that summer, and we had only two minor injuries.

–B.G.–

I was guessing bowline, butterfly, prussik, and fisherman's knot. Also Swiss seat, but not counting that as a knot.

–MV

Not a fisherman's knot. We were Army Infantry, and we didn't go near the water.

Yes, probably bowline.

I do remember one frustrating officer, and we wanted to learn the Hangman's Noose to take care of him.

–B.G.–

You are correct that it is hard remembering details that far back. I just recalled that one other knot from then was bowline on a coil. You must have covered that one.

–MV

"You expect me to remember those knots after almost 40 years?"

Heh!

"Hmmm. There was a simple square knot and simple half hitches. There was a Swiss seat. There was a Prusik knot. Maybe another one."

I'd a guessed Figure Eight, Prusik, ring bend, overhand on a bight …

"We, the training team, had to visually check each trainee's Swiss seat before he went over the edge of the 110-foot rappell cliff. We trained thousands of Infantry troops that summer, and we had only two minor injuries."

Sierra Hotel!

Thanks to Josh for his contribution to the community, but c'mon kids, learn a few knots.

If you can surf the Web or read a topo map, you should be able to conjure a clove hitch. What's that you say? You can do this with no hardware at all? Just a rope and a twig? Yes Virginia, you can! But you have to be a knotty girl!

Parts of our culture are disappearing faster than the tropical rain forests, and it scares me equally.

Here's your homework assignment kids:

Get a 6' hank of line (that is rope) and Google these knots:

Clove hitch

Bowline

Square knot– learn how a double half hitch is related for extra credit

Taught-line hitch (for your tent lines BooBoo) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taut-line_hitch

Add a Prussic hitch for an A+ (you can use it to get Jimmy out of the well after Lassie comes barking). You will need two ropes.

Anybody living in earthquake zones should learn a little rope work. There aren't enough firefighters or even National Guard to come get you or your family, etc, etc, etc.

Total newbie here, maybe this is an effect of my lack of experience, but my whole issue with the PCT method is getting the bag high enough. I'm 5'4", and reaching over my head adds maybe 2-2.5 ft to that. I can tie a stick in the line, but I can't seem to reach high enough to really do any good—any suggestions on how to fix this?

My biggest problem with the stick wasn't getting the stick in the line–it was untying the stick the next morning. If this is easier to release, then it might be worth while. Am I stupid, or couldn't one leave the PVC permanently strung on the line, and not have to re-thread it every time? just have to make sure that when one clips the line into the carabiner that the PVC is below the carabiner.

I generally tie a slip knot in the middle of the rope instead of messing with a clove hitch. You can tie a quick slip knot by grabbing the rope, twisting 90 degrees and and then grabbing the main rope through the loop you initial grabbed. It sounds hard but it's really really easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NcOewm7qAA shows how.

My main issue is throwing the (&(*& rock though. As some other posters have mentioned I tend to go with an ursack as a result… or make one of my hiking partners throw the stupid thing.

Thanks for the vid and writeup Josh! I love the idea…so much I tried to find a piece of gear I already carry to replace the PVC pipe, and came up with an aluminum tent sleeve that I carry (for broken poles). Weighs almost nothing. Instead of tying around the sleeve like you do with the PVC, I'm just using a cord lock underneath the sleeve. I didn't think the cord lock would hold given the weight of the bear bag, but it seems to hold quite well. I've only tested this in my backyard with about 10lbs in my food bag, but it seems to hold quite securely (I'm using Dynaglide for my cord). It's quite easy to slide the sleeve up and down by just pressing the cord-lock, and can probably get it much higher up than when having to tie something. I'll post back once I try it in the wild though, so this is just theory at this point. :)

Anyway, thanks for the idea Josh!

I can't help but notice that the main issues with the standard clove hitch method is that 1) it is hard to tie and untie and 2) you have to pull all the rope through it, which is annoying and time-consuming.

For the first point, well, the clove hitch is pretty straightforward. If you can't learn how to tie it, then by all means use the piece of PVC. However it seems akin to going climbing without knowing how to tie a figure 8…

As for the second point, why not just use a slippery hitch? It's just as safe and you don't need to pull the entire slack through. Just tie your clove hitch as usual up until the last section where you have to tuck the rope underneath the final turn. Instead of all the slack, just pull a decent-size bight (loop) through, then tighten. The added bonus is that you can simply pull the bight out to remove the knot in the morning.

Also, the Ashley Book of Knots gives a number of methods to tie the clove hitch in-hand without having to pull any slack or bights. ABOK 1178 is probably the best. A slippery constrictor knot, ABOK 1250, is also another good option.

All this to say that anything else than a stick is a bit of overkill. YMMV

Keith – When I first started attempting to come up with a way to hang without a knot I made a few devices like what you have pictured. Different cord locks, etc. Under heavier hangs the grab seemed to hold sometimes, not others. I was always concerned that somewhere in the night the device would fail and the bag would slip, this seemed to happen easier if I wet the rope and at night the rope is likely to get damp from dew and of course it could rain.

One of the main issues with calling this a "knotless hang" is that it is no less of a knot then the clove hitch. What you have unwittingly created is-as far as I can tell-a marlinspike hitch.

So in essence you are trading one hitch for another-but I do like the idea of using the marlinspike hitch, but why not do it with a stick found on the ground? What is the need for the PVC?

Seems that if you drilled one of the holes large enough for a tent stake to go through, you could use the PVC as a tent stake pusher a la:

http://gossamergear.com/wp/tips/homemade-peg-pusher

If you wanted to be a pretentious jackass you could do it with Carbon fiber, to match your carbon fiber spork and hat brim. Would save you almost as much as a nickle weighs.

If you're feeding excess free end through the clove hitch then you are not tying it correctly. A clove hitch for a PCT (or any open ended tie off point like a small stick) is easier accomplished by forming the two opposing loops and passing the stick through them.

Harder to explain than demonstrate but you twist a loop holding the working end (the end going to the bear bag) and twisting the free end clockwise with your other hand forming a loop. Pinch the loop and make another clockwise twist (for a second loop) next to the first. Pass your stick thru the loops and pull the free end to tighten.

You're gadget is good but is just a marlin spike hitch on a captive pin. The marlin spike hitch is extremely easy to tie with one hand and is easier to untie than a clove hitch.

Hammock hangers will recognize the marlin spike hitch. Here's how to tie one;

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-tie-marlin-spike-hitch-261834/view/