Base Weight Vs. Consumables Discussion

My father was type 2 and it was NOT caused by external factors. His doctor told him that he produced plenty of insulin but that his body used it poorly.

He was successfully diet controlled until the "new" medications came out for type 2 diabetics. It was awhile before his doctor would prescribe them as he was doing well enough with diet. Eventually he did because of weight loss.

To claim that type 2 is always the result of ones life style is completely false and insulting.

"type 1 and type 2 diabetes are very different in both their treatment and how they affect your body from a physiology standpoint."

I am well aware. I was referring to the physiology of a ketogenic diet, not the underlying pathology of the diseases themselves. In that regard, a ketogenic or just low carb diet can be equally beneficial to blood sugar control in both diseases. This has been well documented in treating epileptics with diabetes (ketogenic diets also helps control epilepsy). It has also been shown that a merely lower carb diet (~70 grams per day) is beneficial to type 1 diabetics (without epilepsy).

"To claim that type 2 is always the result of ones life style is completely false and insulting."

Agreed. My grandfather died of idiopathic type 2 diabetes. He was very lean and definitely not a couch potato. But the majority of current type 2 diabetes is caused by unfortunate lifestyle choices, the exception being children who are not in control of their lifestyle choices.

To bring this back on topic, the lightest food weight would be 30% protein and 70% fat. However, if you are not used to this diet you may not feel very well for a few days in the begining.

How closely does that correspond with genuine (traditional) pemmican? (i.e. not the carbohydrate/berry stuff that is sold as pemmican these days)

— MV

"How closely does that correspond with genuine (traditional) pemmican? "

Traditional pemmican was around 2 parts lean meat and 1 part fat. In other words for every 2 cups of pulverised meat they added a cup of fat. This would be pretty close to the 70% fat and 30% protein ratio.

"Fat – Fueling for Endurance"

Excellent article, Marco. It sure tracks with my personal experience. On backpacking trips up to 10 days my fuel consists of about 30% carbs, 60% fat(including body fat), and 10% protein. I arrived at these proportions by trial and error after reading up on exercise physiology. As the article points out, the most precise(and most expensive) way to arrive at the optimum proportions of carb, fat, and protein is to determine your RER quotient at the target level of exertion and structure your diet accordingly.

At higher elevations, however, it becomes progressively more difficult for the body to utilize fat as a fuel source, especially when on the move, due to decreased O2, and the diet needs to be adjusted accordingly, IME.

"At higher elevations, however, it becomes progressively more difficult for the body to utilize fat as a fuel source, especially when on the move, due to decreased O2, and the diet needs to be adjusted accordingly, IME."

I have traditionally carried a high fat diet and have experienced "hitting the wall" on some of the 12k passes. Higher ratio of carbs?

"I have traditionally carried a high fat diet and have experienced "hitting the wall" on some of the 12k passes. Higher ratio of carbs?"

Greg,

I would say definitely. Going over Shepherd Pass, I use Perpetuem and E.F.S. "sports drinks" exclusively and cruise.
The stuff is over 90% carbs, requires no digestion except for the small amount of protein and fat, and gets where it needs to in a hurry. Keeps you hydrated, too. Maybe give it a try. Or, at least, increase your carb intake considerably. IMO, the time for fat intake at altitude is in the evening when your body can digest it at leisure and the heat given off will help keep you warm in the bag, and to a lesser degree at breakfast.

Greg, One additional point which might be helpful in understanding the situation. Glucose contains half the O2 necessary to oxidize it embedded in its molecular structure, as follows: C6H12O6 + 6O2 => 6CO2 + 6H2O + energy. Both fats and proteins contain very little O2 in their molecular structures and, therefore, require far more atmospheric O2 for their oxidation. The higher you go the less atmospheric O2 is available to facilitate this process.
It follows that carbs provide a more readily utilizable source of energy, and so it is in the field. It doesn't make as much difference at night because the rate at which energy is used by your working muscles decreases when you are not moving, reducing the required O2 uptake rate.

""I have traditionally carried a high fat diet and have experienced "hitting the wall" on some of the 12k passes. Higher ratio of carbs?""

Yes. Carbs are absolutely needed for high intensity or maximal exercise. Fats are great for submaximal slow release energy such as 'ordinary' hiking. I would guess that as far as your body is concerned, going over a high pass would be getting pretty close to maximal intensity, thus carbs would help a lot.

"On backpacking trips up to 10 days my fuel consists of about 30% carbs, 60% fat(including body fat), and 10% protein"

Those proportions fall in the recommended range for ultra endurance sports. Currently my backpacking diet ratios are around 40/50/10, but I'm still in an adjustment and adaptation process.

Use of body fat is another interesting point. Used wisely, you can save a significant amount of food. After all… body fat is our natural energy store. For short trips (the typical weekend trip) a small caloric deficit is also acceptable: just supplement your trail diet with a good meal before and after the trip.

Just to complicate matters further, another concept to consider ;-)

There is another indicator known as PRAL (Potential Renal Acid Load) that measures the effects of food on blood pH. This indicator allows us to determine whether food is acid or alkaline forming. It appears that an alkaline diet is healthier and promotes recovery after exercise.

There are PRAL tables that lists the acid, base values for common foods.

How do we apply this concept? We know that nuts increase the caloric density of our food. Before I’m aware of PRAL index I included peanuts in my trail food, which are acid forming. Now I’ve replaced it by hazelnuts, which are alkaline forming.

This assumes you run a decent surplus of body fat. I have ~10 lbs of fat on my 145 lb frame, which means I can afford to lose maybe 3 lbs before I start depleting required fat and put myself at serious risk.

Since I started to use a spreadsheet to help keep my gear weight to a minimum, I also added food and water to the list, please refer to the pdf gear list below that I made before my TGO hike. Per resupply I add a section of consumables which can be anything that during those five days will reduce in weight, incl. Esbit tabs, whisky, even candles and naturally food, but not water. I liked to regard water as one fixed weight as i fill my platy a few times per day. Per resupply I calculate the total weight of all consumables, which results in the total weights per resupply. My totals then consist of: Dry pack weight, which is basically base weight; Pack weight incl consumables and water, which is anything that goes in the backpack or which is attached to the backpack and which for me is THE most important weight of all, since this is what I actually will have to carry; Skin out weight, which speaks for itself. As said, the all important measure for me is pack weight, because I feel the need to keep everything on my back as lightweight as possible, so food and water should be included on my gear list.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/forums/gear_lists/957e29200443678491818e67aeced8c8.pdf

I used to aim for about 3000 Calories in 750 gram daily portions, which I actually all ate, but which I would like to pack into about 500 gram daily portions. Recently, I found that eating about 2500 Cal/day is also enough for me. Please refer to below spreadsheet of last year's Slovenia hike. In this spreadsheet I calculated my food a little more accurately: the amount of calories per day (2555) are calculated as well as food weight (18.5 oz) per day and Caloric density (138, which I'd like to bump to about 150). There's also an extra total weight, which is the weight of all the gear i carry, so base weight plus everything i ware.

My diet consists of:
-Breakfast, granola/milk powder
-Snack 1: buttercake (dutch recipe: butter, sugar and flower, hmmm)
-Snack 2: Snickers
-Lunch: tortilla, tuna and mayonnaise, has surprisingly few calories, but tastes extremely good.
-Snack 3: GORP portion
-Snack 4: Snickers
-Diner: home dried meal

Most important of this diet is that I really like to eat these foods, cuz my hikes are meant to be pleasurable events and drinking olive oil does not seem very pleasurable.

Eventually I was carrying a little under 16 pounds on my back at the trailhead, which IMHO is not bad at all!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Am-60U5v8hk8cks2YXdGdHR4eGpqSTZlVEdPZ0s1ZkE&hl=en

Finally a picture of about my food for a two week hike a few years ago:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ieJr3gE1NbE/SWppx_-_xqI/AAAAAAAAAwM/GQtJaAMiCyQ/s800/DSC00138.JPG

Eins

"This assumes you run a decent surplus of body fat."

Absolutely. For this reason I indicated that body fat should be used WISELY.

A common strategy to use body fat is to gain the amount needed before the trek. But to do this without health risks, the trek should be longer enough so that the gain / loss processes are progressive.

This is a serious issue, so you should know what you are doing…

"Most important of this diet is that I really like to eat these foods"

That’s a great point. After all, food / backpacking / life is supposed to be fun.

"…drinking olive oil does not seem very pleasurable"

Olive oil is a healthy way to really boost the caloric density. Used as an ingredient not only adds calories, but enhances flavor. For example, mashed potatoes with and without olive oil is very different.

"For example, mashed potatoes with and without olive oil is very different."

Sure, but if you'd be a really good cook, you'd know that mashed potatoes need butter and a raw egg to make it reeeaaally good.

Eins

"you'd know that mashed potatoes need butter and a raw egg to make it reeeaaally good."

Or garlic and Cantal cheese stirred in to make it reeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaally good.

;)

Or you can eat them dry right out of the ziplock like I do.

Mmmmmmm. (Inarticulate Homer-Simpson food-lust noise). Crunchy. ;-D

Stargazer

Marco, that table is very interesting.

This may be veering somewhat off-topic, but it's interesting to check the PH values of the foods I most often prefer in each category. It makes me wonder if certain patterns in our preferences might indicate some kind of a nutritional imbalance for which our bodies are instinctively trying to compensate. I.e., if I look at fruits and vegetables (and herbs), some of my most-eaten foods are very high in alkaline promotion.

Too, if what you're saying about alkaline foods having a possible benefit in recovery is true, then it helps affirm my very long-held assertion that figs (and correlatively, fig bars) are one of the all-time best foods for endurance sports/efforts. Fig bars–preferably the good, wholesome variety made without preservatives or processed sugar, i.e., not Fig Newtons–have one of the highest ratios of grams of carbs and calories to weight unit, and I see in that chart that they're also very highly alkaline.

When I was a competitive road cyclist (and track for that matter), I would carry a huge stack of fig bars in my jersey on long training rides and races. Minimal packaging and no waste to boot.

As another aside related to burning fat as fuel, there were a number of studies in the 90s which confirmed that somewhere between one and two cups of coffee in the morning actually helped stimulate fat oxidization in endurance pursuits. For this reason, coaches began recommending against omitting morning coffee despite its diuretic properties. It was felt that its subtle benefit outweighed the cost.

The question of acidity of food has been bothering me ever since i found out about the paleo diet. Specifically the fact that pH balance of food is important because acidic foods cause inflammation. We are supposed to avoid sugar, processed foods, dairy, nightshades, and breads/wheats.
It seems like this makes up a fair amount of hiker dinners and breakfasts if you are eating instant potatoes or ramen for dinner. Oatmeal for breakfast. And cheese and tortillas for lunch. All this causes inflammation which makes joints sore and recovery slower, not to mention lacks nutrients. Makes me question the load of carbs as a good hiker meal. Anyone have insight?

Rather than worrying about trying to balance the acid:base composition of your foods, it is easier and at least as effective to just take a few grams of sodium bicarbonate per day. Along those lines, I don't worry as much about sodium on the trail as I do at home, instead I take potassium supplements. Of course, if you aren't into supplements than knowing how to balance your diet is good.

For the record, the ergogenic and fat mobilising effects of caffeine consumption are short lived, a matter of a few days if your body is unaccustomed to it. If you are a regular coffee consumer, the benefits are greatly reduced.

Thanks for that, I'll find that useful for daily diet, as well as trail planning. Interesting that vinegar has a base effect…

currently i crush multivitamins and sprinkle them onto my dried meals. would taking a multivitamin give you enough potassium and all those other minerals you all are talking about?

@brandon
seems like you took everything out that hikers need! whole grains provide much needed energy for exercise, as do many of the other things you mentioned. I don't trust diets much, notice how there is always a new one? Because the old ones don't work. Besides food scientists change what they say about food all the time. Just eat healthy, you know what that means, eating snickers and drinking vodka aint the anwser, just eat healthy.

"For the record, the ergogenic and fat mobilising effects of caffeine consumption are short lived, a matter of a few days if your body is unaccustomed to it"

Lynn, yes. If it seemed I was suggesting there was a longer term benefit, I certainly didn't mean that. I wasn't thinking beyond a time frame of a few hours. Any benefit derived from a morning cup of coffee wouldn't persist beyond the effort that immediately followed, and that, only in highly conditioned people with high anaerobic thresholds, and when training in long, slow distance mode. It would have been a moot consideration for athletes working near or above their AT.

I think the thinking was that it would slightly forestall glycogen store depletion by reaching fractionally further into fat stores as long as the effort remained somewhere below 60% of VO2 max.

Then again, I'm so many years removed from when I was racing, and sports medicine/nutrition has made quantum leaps, so it could be flat wrong at this point.

Anyway, I like coffee. Every day starts with some!

Great thread and discussion.

I consider and aim for slight alkalinity (7.22-7.24) in my diet, which seems to be most beneficially achieved through raw fruits + vegetables, whole non-glutinous grains and cereal, accompanied with raw nuts and appropriate oils, such as flax and olive. The above referenced chart seems to contradict others that I have seen in some areas (tomato juice, for example) and did not differentiate between cooked + raw, which can have a dramatic affect on foods – especially nuts. If you conduct a brief search on the internet, you will find many similar charts with slightly differing conclusions on which foods tend to which ph.

One thing that I would greatly appreciate learning more about is responsible foraging in order to add minerals and fresh enzymes to trail food. Even a garnish of wild green onion or sassafras leaves can add significantly to flavor while adding nothing to weight carried, if found near camp.

I have known people to work up to the point of being able to drink (good) olive oil, even in daily life, but it adds such great flavor to many foods, you might as well just be generous with it in your meals. I have used coconut oil successfully also, but what I'm really wanting to try on the trail is Flax oil – obviously being careful not to overdo it ;) .