Bulk supplements and my PCT diet

To me, this is crazy. I can't imagine enjoying consuming half my diet from protein shakes, but I did have a few a week on the PCT.

If you don't already have a trail name, I'm giving you one. Powder.

Have a great hike!

The "oat muscle" ingredient is just oat. Grains are about 2000 calories per lb (~ 4 cal/gram). It seems like really expensive oatmeal to me. Maybe that's OK if it mixes easily into a drink. Personally, I'd prefer oatmeal most of the time.

The numbers don't add up right in their nutritional info:
1 lb container of "oat muscle" has 40 gram servings with 170 calories per serving and 15 servings per 1 lb container.
(15 servings) X (40 grams/serving) = 600 grams = 1.32 lb.

170 calories/ 40 grams is slightly more than the 150 cal/40g of oatmeal; perhaps it is a little drier than regular oatmeal.

So it'll be a little less than 2000 cal/lb (1929cal/lb).

The numbers on the EFA are about right, ~3000 cal/lb.

It's crazy to me too, but consuming 6000 calories a day is not an easy thing to do, especially when I don't like taking time for meals.

One thing though… It's not really protein shakes. I'm looking at only 2-3 scoops of protein, which is around 100 grams of protein per day. The oat muscle and EFA will be roughly 12 scoops per day combined. I'm stil messing around with the ratios of scoops, but the protein powder is a small part of it because of the protein found in the carb/fat powders.

Walter, the weight of the oat muscle isn't quite right. I really care about the macronutrients found in each scoop since that's my unit of measurement on the trail. So 15 scoops of oat muscle is 2550 calories. Mixing oat muscle and EFA would get me somewhere between 2550-3000 calories. Did I say that I'd still be consuming a couple scoops of protein powder? That adds a couple hundred calories, which lands me right around 3000 calories.

You're right about the ingredient. It's kind of a fancy variation of oatmeal. The problem with oatmeal is that I can only consume about one cup of oatmeal before I start gagging to choke down the rest…which is a very time consuming process. Also, the calories per volume is roughly 50% higher for oat muscle. It still comes down to how I can consume calories though. I know I can drink many shakes per day on the trail, but I can't force myself to eat very much…although eating up to 3000 calories of solid food is still a LOT.

I sure I missed 14 other pages of posts….

But how did you arrive at 6000 calories per day?

The army thinks 4500 will take care of a person in the field.
Andrew Skurka gets by with around the same amount.

Not contentious, just curious.

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure Andy loses weight on all of his trips. I need 3000+ a day for normal maintenance and I'm only 145 lbs. I'm also at 7% fat so I can't afford to lose much weight. With that said, on a trip longer than a week or so where I was hiking for 8 or more hours a day I'm sure I'd need at least 6000 cals a day to keep from losing much and I'm a small guy.

250 pounds total weight, 20+ miles a day, 10-12 hiking hours a day.

@Eugene
Consuming about a pound of a mixture of these supplements will give me roughly 3000 calories, which is half of what I need.

Note that you are consuming a mixture of 3000 cal/lb EFA and 2550 cal/lb OatMuscle, so the caloric value of a mixture of those two will necessarily be between them — perhaps that is what you meant by "roughly".

@Walter
Actually, the calories for the OatMuscle do add up if you look at the macro nutrients on the nutrition label:
* 27 cal = 3 gm fat * 9
* 120 cal = 30 gm carb * 4
* 24 cal = 6 gm protein * 4
total = 171 calories per serving.

What does bother me, though is the total — 2550 cal/lb is way high for oatmeal, even after allowing for their version getting 170 cal per 40 gm serving (plain oatmeal is 150 cal per 40 gm serving).

The problem is their claim that a 40 gram serving yields 15 servings per lb — I make that to be more like 11.3 servings per lb making it 1928 cal/lb.

That difference matters a lot to the weight Eugene will have to carry. (What set me off on looking into this is that Eugene claims his mixture is 3000 cal/lb — that would have to be really high fat content. I make that 216 gm carbs + 238 gm fat — you'd be eating over half fat, which seems problematical to me.)

— MV

I have found the website below useful to estimate calorie burn. With 250# and 10 hours of backpacking you get about 8700 calories.

http://www.healthstatus.com/calculate/cbc

Bob, I'm not very worried about my exact consumption. I do want to get what I pay for. Let's assume I'm getting what I paid for. I don't want to get into a fiasco about that. You're right though, I'm either going to go heavier on the fat or consume a little more. The important thing is to be able to down a lot without it being a huge issue. Also, it's a lot of fat, but it's also a lot of calories and I have limited space and strength to carry things. It's thru hiking. I'm not going to eat any kind of conventional diet. A big bag of M&M's would be considered a great addition to my diet. :)

Fred, I have seen that I may need to consume a lot more than I'm planning. I'd like to consume more, but 6000 calories a day is already pushing the limits in what I can carry, what I can actually consume, what I can afford, etc. So I may lose some weight. That's fine. That's also why I'm watching my protein intake–to limit or prevent good tissue loss.

" Also, it's a lot of fat, but it's also a lot of calories and I have limited space and strength to carry things. It's thru hiking. I'm not going to eat any kind of conventional diet. A big bag of M&M's would be considered a great addition to my diet."

One thing you should keep in mind when planning your diet for a hike this long is that it takes carbs to metabolize fat. They can come from dietary sources(either carbs or protein indirectly) or from your own muscles. If you do not have enough carbs/protein) in your diet, your liver will synthesize glucose from protein provided by your muscle mass. Not a desirable situation. Both Richard Nisley and Kevin Sawchuk know a lot about this subject, and it was well explained by Ryan Jordan on the Arctic1000.com web site. It might be worth your while to PM them and also read Ryan's writeup.

I do want to get what I pay for.
Yes, I was surprised to see the nutritional label claiming 15 servings per container, when the serving size calculates out to only a bit over 11 servings. Reduces the calories per lb significantly, which is important to you.

— MV

There is a lot of controversy over the calorie content of fiber. Estimates range from 0 to 2.5 cal/gram, depending on the type of fiber and who's doing the estimating. Two things stand out in my mind: 1) Nobody I've come across says that fiber contains 4 cal/gram; The principle behind "net carbs" in the Atkins Diet, IIRC, is that fiber contains zero cal/gram. 2) Those who maintain that SOLUBLE fiber contains contains 2.5 calories/gram go on to say that it is broken down in the large intestine by bacteria, releasing the energy in carbon-hydrogen bonds. How this adds to the energy available to muscles to do work is beyond me, and nobody seems to be saying. The point is that even at the max claimed calorie content of fiber, you are 1.5 cal/gram short, which is a significant deficit at the quantities Eugene is talking about over the time span involved in a PCT thruhike. If the energy is not available to the muscles anyway, or the calorie content of fiber is zero, you're over estimating the calorie content of fiber by 4 cal/gram, which is a really big deal. Either way, you're going to need fiber to stay healthy, but I think it would be worth finding out to your satisfaction how many calories you're getting from it. Worth investigating, Eugene?

Also, an ounce of olive oil, or other oil, such as walnut, grapeseed, etc, at either end of the day adds a quick 500 calories to your diet for 2 oz.

reading about thermodynamics in nutrition today just thought you guys who believe in the calories -in-out approach would find this useful.
As you guys state it:
ΔE = Ein – Eout

what a starting equation for a living organism would actually look like:

credit to Robert McLeod

Thought that would be helpful.

"reading about thermodynamics in nutrition today just thought you guys who believe in the calories -in-out approach would find this useful.
As you guys state it:
ΔE = Ein – Eout

what a starting equation for a living organism would actually look like:

credit to Robert McLeod"

Golly gee, Mr Wizard.

Hope your not sick of those shakes by Kennedy Meadows. Tastes change, cravings will have you dreaming of other things. I personally would get real tired of 120 pounds of anything in few month period. Hiker boxers are full of things people get sick of eating. Variety is the spice of life. Plenty of through hikers get by on junk, and town food on the PCT. Best of luck to you.

Tom, you're going way over my head with trying to figure out how many calories are in the fiber. If you're really into it, maybe you could try taking it up with the owner of Protein Factory? He's pretty sharp and gets involved with questions on his forum. It does look like I'm going to be at a deficit, but it would be almost impossible for me to avoid being at a deficit for so many reasons. That's fine, I need to lose weight anyway, and as I lose weight, the deficit will be reduced. As far as getting enough fiber, that won't be a problem at all. I'm already all over the oil thing too.

Ken, I'll be fine with the shakes, although I suppose I could try different flavors. I may order some syrups to flavor my shakes.

Don't sweat the calories. If a food feels like it gives you energy than use it for energy. Also don't worry about fiber there is no hard evidence you need it or at least a lot of it. Eat what tastes good and leaves you feeling good and ready for a day of hiking.

"Tom, you're going way over my head with trying to figure out how many calories are in the fiber. If you're really into it, maybe you could try taking it up with the owner of Protein Factory?"

@Eugene

I think you have misinterpreted the intent of my post. In your OP you seemed to be inviting others' input. I was merely commenting on a point that should be of some concern on a thru hike, that had not been addressed. I am definitely not "into" anything in the missionary sense. I could give a rip whether or not you or the owner of Protein Factory take accurate calorie counts into consideration. I was merely making a good faith effort to add to the data you have available for planning your hike, not to get into a debate, or get summarily blown off. Bottom line: HYOH and live with your decisions. Best of luck.

"Also don't worry about fiber there is no hard evidence you need it or at least a lot of it."

@Brian

The issue here is not one of needing fiber. It is present in most complex carbs and also nuts, 1 to n(n<28) grams/oz, depending on the food. The issue is how many calories it contains. Its weight still has to be carried, and if it provides little to no calories, that should be taken into account. That was my point, which you have apparently not understood.

Tom ,I was only trying to make the point that understanding how calories are used by the body is so unimaginably complex that breaking down every calorie like that on a trip is hopeless. Its beyond current science.
Not that choosing calorie dense foods isn't helpful.
No need to take offense.

"No need to take offense."

@Brian

Guess I was a little prickly. I apologize.

Eugene,

I have nothing to add as far as the nutritional aspect of this discussion, but may I ask if you have tested this hiking diet out on the trail yet?

The reason I ask is that I have found that isolate in drinks like Accelerade give me gas, and my experiments with liquid shakes on the trail lead to diarrhea. I just can’t seem to use them under long term activity. The same thing won’t bother me a bit at home.

Tom, I wasn't trying to debate you or blow you off. I'm just not nearly at your level of understanding about it. I don't even know where to start to make use of the information. I appreciate you trying to help though.

Raymond, I have been taking protein powders almost every day on and off the trail, so the protein won't be a problem at all. Actually, I find the isolates to be better on my stomach than the concentrates. My system doesn't like the concentrates at Costco, but does pretty well with the Protein Factory stuff. Now the oat muscle and EFA…those are completely untested so far. Believe me, I see the huge potential flaw in that. I should have ordered samples a while back ago. My hope is that my stomach reacts to oat muscle like it does to oatmeal. I did avoid another type of fat that the owner recommended because he said some people don't react well to it, at least initially…also because it's expensive. I'm hoping to get the stuff next week, which will give me another week to start getting used to it before I start my hike. As an early starter, if anyone is really interested in seeing how these work out for me, I suppose they could follow my journal on postholer. I may try to update this thread, but I seem to lose track of threads on this forums after a while.