- Apr 18, 2018 at 1:55 pm #3531129
Thanks for the samples. They are in our lab now. We’ll do peel tests on the samples to test the laminate bond and compare to virgin samples. Honestly, from what I was inferring from the thread so far I was expecting the samples to be in worse shape than they were in.
Nathan, at first look here your fabric looks good, your fabric is sound. I think we’ve achieved good lamination. I would say that in a flex test the X-PLY yarn will certainly add stability to the fabric(as it is designed to) and prevent the hard creasing where the laminate is most prone to damage.
I’ll update with the lab test results as soon as I have them.
TaylorApr 18, 2018 at 3:40 pm #3531143
Thank you for the testing update!Apr 20, 2018 at 6:14 pm #3531507
Hi Richard, Nathan,
This week I had our lab test Richards wet-flex testing fabric against virgin fabric samples from the same lots. We ran our standard peel test in which we separate the layers of the laminate and peel a two inch strip to test the laminate bond. If there is a suspect bond, it will show here. In the both cases we ended up a film break, meaning the film remained adhered to the fabric side indicating a strong laminate. If the laminate were compromised the film would peel off the fabric without breaking.
Nathan, from the testing we’ve done, we’re confident the Coyote Brown V21 is properly laminated and will perform to the standards that both you, and us here at DP would expect.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Hope y’all have a good weekend.
TaylorApr 20, 2018 at 7:04 pm #3531514
I have one question.
That is great news that the wet-flexed Coyote laminate passed your peel strength test… thanks. That rules out the adhesive as being the degradation culprit.
Do you have any insight as to whether the V21 PET layer perforations are a result of the soft fabric, the absence of the X-ply, or both?Apr 20, 2018 at 8:24 pm #3531525
As you know the PET is relatively rigid so when a hard crease is formed, it’s properties diminish. You’ll notice in your wet-flex specimen that the fabric degradation is most notable on hard creases or fold points.
Following that logic, fabrics with X-PLY yarn reinforcement or thicker face and/or backing taffetas protect the film from hard creasing and therefore protect against potential film degradation from this cause.
TaylorApr 20, 2018 at 9:40 pm #3531531
Nathan MeyersonBPL Member
Taylor, thanks for the updated results. I will use the material in low-fold prone areas to best make use of it’s properties.
Looking forward to hearing about your no-sew adhesive projects as well.
NathanApr 21, 2018 at 4:44 pm #3531596
Ryan SmithBPL Member
@violentgreenLocale: East TN
Is a “hard crease” something that would normally form when rolling up an extension collar, for example? I’m trying to get an idea of how/if one of those is created in a real world scenario.
RyanApr 21, 2018 at 4:55 pm #3531600
ProbablyApr 21, 2018 at 5:17 pm #3531602
I have an XPac pack with a VX07 (I think?) extension collar with a drawstring closure. I’m not crazy about the fabric in that application because it doesn’t gather when you pull the string and I can see how creases will form where it rolls repeatedly.Jul 1, 2018 at 11:10 pm #3544770
Brief article today on some of the new fabrics and the new seam seal tape:
CheersJul 2, 2018 at 5:54 am #3544834
After re-reading this thread, and Roger’s new article linked above, I’m at quite a disadvantage not having the technical know-how involved. Nevertheless, the D-P fabrics do not seem to have the qualities desired for a lightweight pack. They are heavier, stiff, and appear to present issues involving creasing and resulting wear and possible leakage.
I’ve found that woven pack fabrics with a softer hand work better for packs in a variety of ways, including drawstring closures mentioned above. Although the next MYOG pack will have a covered WP zip closure, I’ve noted, for example, that fabrics with a softer hand zip a lot more easily. In 2007, I made a pack using “White Widow” nylon pack fabric from Seattle Fabrics in a spruce green color. The riptstop yarn is Spectra, and I’ve seen a similar material recently on the Extrem Textil site. That pack has weathered many multi-week treks, including long bushwhacks, and has not even a scratch. Unfortunately, it is a on the heavy side, ~5 oz/s/y, and the PU inside coating, while showing no signs of damage, seems to have thinned a bit, raising some doubts about continuing waterproofness. The more recent Dyneema grid ripstops come around 5 oz, and lighter, like one offered by Thru-Hiker. But their coatings appear less robust, raising similar questions about waterproofness.
In 2013, Rockywoods offered a 210 denier, double ripstop sand colored nylon pack fabric weighing ~3.5 oz. (Part # 1987-134), specially made for the US military, which found it below spec. The PU coating is substantial, but has a slightly waxy feel, which may have been the problem. In any event, the double ripstop greatly improves the durability, and the waxy feel of the coat does not appear to affect the waterproofness. This is what will go into the next pack, with a butterfly frame of Easton ALU tent pole tube that was kindly pre-curved by Roger Caffin using his home-made “Rolling Jenny.”
One requirement of SUL gear is a lot of TLC, excluding baggage racks and the like. This is no problem, since I enjoy driving long distances, bringing along a couple pups who I’d never consign to a crate in a baggage hold. NH to Colorado is a great ride, seeing America (like in the Simon & Garfunkel song).
So will wait a few years to see what develops in pack fabrics, and then maybe ask Richard Nisley about submitting a few more samples.Jul 2, 2018 at 6:11 am #3544835
“This is no problem, since I enjoy driving long distances, bringing along a couple pups who I’d never consign to a crate in a baggage hold. NH to Colorado is a great ride, seeing America (like in the Simon & Garfunkel song).”
If you ever drive out to WA, you and your pups are always welcome to crash/shower/layover at my place if I’m home, FWIW. There’s even a nice local brewery about 5 minutes away…Jul 2, 2018 at 7:16 am #3544840
They are heavier, stiff, and appear to present issues involving creasing and resulting wear and possible leakage.
Well, … my experience has been that a bit of stiffness can be useful: it keeps the pack open when you are filling it up. That might be just me.
woven pack fabrics with a softer hand work better for packs in a variety of ways,
I made a pack bag for my H-frame out of some ‘pack fabric’ I bought from an Oz supplier. It was soft to handle all right, and made a pretty awful bag. It distorted far too much, and had to be seriously reinforced before I could put any eyelets in it.
I have gone right off the X-Grid reinforcing threads. They may be just right for sails, but they are high-wear points on pack bags imho.
One requirement of SUL gear is a lot of TLC, excluding baggage racks and the like
Eh, well, yes I guess. Our very old packs made of steel tubing and canvas could be thrown around a bit more, but they were a shade heavy. I am prepared to ‘look after’ my UL gear. I have managed to put my UL packs in baggage racks on trains – carefully. If the pack is light enough there is little problem.
More packs! More packs!
CheersJul 3, 2018 at 3:37 am #3544986
The next pack will be a partial panel loader. That’s where the zip comes in. And with the frame with a shelf on top, stiffness or rigidity of the fabric is not needed (within reason). I like shelves on top for using the pack as a cupboard, and carrying food outside the pack, even though it is in a Ursack plus a vapor barrier around the food. You can still stuff a windshirt or whatever through the shock cords that hold stuff on the shelf. Here are a couple pics of front and back to show what I mean, except that the carbon spoke and hub are being replaced with the Easton tent tube butterfly, the sidearms beefed up, and the bottom will be open with the mesh backpanel stretched taut like the deck of a snowshoe as on a previous but much heavier design. There is a full solid backpanel behind the mesh of course:
I once traveled several days by train from Montreal to Banff, Canada, with a modified REI pack made of over 10 oz ballistic nylon cloth, and wearing jeans with “BIG YANK” branded in big letters on a leather patch on my back pocket. The pack was indestructible, but noted that the other passengers seemed a little aloof, and realized that the brand may have made made an impression. Anyway, met a native Canadian tribal chief (and member of the Saskatchewan legislature) and his daughter who were great fun. He told the conductor he had no ticket and had come from Prince Edward Island in the Atlantic, and was about to be thrown off the train until his daughter came running down the aisle with their tickets. Sorry this has little to do with pack fabric, but could not resist.Jul 3, 2018 at 8:04 am #3545001
I have often wondered about a panel loader. By and large they don’t seem to be waterproof, but I can’t help thinking they might be the bees knees for hutting in Europe.
CheersJul 6, 2018 at 3:53 am #3545458
Roger – I’ve found that a waterproof zipper, plus a flap over the zip, keeps the rain out, but the construction must not allow the fabric to pull at the zipper so as to expose it from under the flap. The photo above doesn’t show it, but the right angle seam around the periphery of the drop panel is an inch in front of the zipper and zipper flap, which lay flat along the sides of the pack. An example of this construction, but without the flaps over the zipper, is at: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/ski-packs/dawn-patrol-32-BD681170_cfg.html.
The flap over the WP zipper also keeps water from coming in at the zipper ends, which look pretty exposed in that Black Diamond photo.
At one point, a wider overflap was used that was pulled tight around the drop panel with a drawstring, but with the advent of waterproof zips, found this to be unnecessary. The above also assumes careful seam sealing, and a highly water resistant pack fabric to begin with. And guess that with a pack, even abrasions may need to be patched to stop water from seeping in. The White Widow I mentioned has never abraded and/or leaked, but the same cannot be said for the Dyneema gridstop. Manufacturers are always trying to cut corners (but that’s not the same as ‘shortcuts’, which are OK).Jul 6, 2018 at 4:19 am #3545466
But what is ‘waterproof’?
For me, ‘waterproof’ means that if I have to wade across a river and there is a bit of an oops moment, it does not matter. The thing which so often catches us is that the river looks shallow enough, but the middle bit turns out to be just a bit deeper. Both I and my pack get a bit more submerged.
Now, rain-shedding – those flaps are good for that. I use flaps over zips in some places, like on pockets. Works well there.
Waterproof zips – we have a few on jackets. I find them very hard to use in the summer time, and almost impossible in the winter when the plastic gets a bit hard.
CheersJul 7, 2018 at 5:52 am #3545763
Aren’t there nasty crocs in those Aussie rivers that actually jump out and drag you under? So said an old article in “Wild” magazine.
The current has been the more frequent problem, however, and has kept me from doing more adventurous fording; and even then, always with water shoes and a trekking pole. The worst that happens is the butt gets soaked, which is why the pack zips come only part way down from the top.
I can appreciate, though, how long distance hikers, as on the triple crown trails in the USA, may have to handle dangerous fords just to keep going. And agree that in such cases a roll down top is probably best. I used dry bags with roll down closures on trips that were part kayaking and part hiking. If the boat goes over, which can happen on fast rivers or in high winds on the big lakes, all can be lost without the pack in a dry bag in the stern. Now that safety first hiking has become the rule, I don’t have concerns about the pack going totally immersed into the drink. Maybe this also has something to do with the high quality of the trail building by hiking clubs in the USA. NH’s Cohos Trail, for which I used to volunteer, has built many bridges, or in the alternative provided detours over snowmobile bridges. Volunteers for Outdoor Colorado also does an amazing job, just to name a couple.
Most of the rain gear now has the water resistant zips, and they seem to work fine, albeit they do not get much use except in rainy weather. The No. 5’s I use on packs came from Quest Outfitters I think, and have never had problems despite hard use. Again, I’m not out there grinding out miles for month after month these days.
Jul 7, 2018 at 5:59 am #3545766
- This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Sam Farrington.
Crocs – yes, they exist, but only at the Top End. The Northern Territory. That’s a very long way from here.
We have a couple of jackets with waterproof zips. They only get used when it is cold: if it is warm we just get rain-wet. With a jacket on we would get sweat-wet anyhow. But we both dislike the WP zips as they are very hard to operate when they are cold. They take a lot of force to do up.
If there are different brands of them out there, maybe they behave differently. Dunno.
CheersJul 11, 2018 at 5:14 am #3546349
All the WP zips I’ve seen are essentially the same, and do not zip as easily as the non-WP ones, either tooth or coil. So you present still another reason why a roll top might be easier to operate than a zip opening panel loader in very cold weather. Still, I used the zippered packs until 2007 during the warmer 3 seasons in the US, and never had any problem, even though trips in the shoulder seasons in Colorado and the Northern US often involved camping on snow, but probably not at very low temps. So I think panel loaders have a place in temps above the teens (F), and are much handier in less frigid climes.Jul 11, 2018 at 5:43 am #3546354
I don’t love roll-tops per se.
I prefer a full-strength body and a lighter but WP throat above it for sealing, with a LID over the top. Wet tent goes under lid on top of WP throat. This is not a lot different from a roll top of course.
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