Carbon Fiber Tent Poles

Integrity

My last tent had them (MSR Carbon Reflex 2) and they seemed great. No issues at all. For a 3 season tent I'd rather go lighter still and have a tent that sets up with trekking poles.

If its an integrity issue please give examples including what type of pole or brand of poles you have used and how they failed for you since this makes all the difference.

Lawson:

Do a search on Fibraplex. I've written extensively about it.

I use trekking poles or carbon fiber poles for my Squall 2. I think it depends on the tent design. If the stresses on the poles are similar to trekking poles (from one end to the other*) then I would have no hesitation. This is how the Squall 2 (and many other tents) are designed. If, however, the stresses were in the middle (such as a dome style tent) then I would be hesitant.

*I hope I've described that OK — I know there is a better way to put it, but I can't come up with the word or phrase right now.

I used CF poles with my Seedhouse for a couple years with no problems whatsoever. I want to get a set (or modify the ones I have) for a Fly Creek 2 now.

Good luck with it.

How's the bear cans coming?

"If its an integrity issue please give examples including what type of pole or brand of poles you have used and how they failed for you since this makes all the difference."

I'll only risk my hide using carbon fiber poles for warm weather, but in those cases I'd probably use a hammock, tarptent or bivy. In those setups that require poles, I'd be willing to give carbon fiber a shot.

For a 4-season expedition tent, there's no way I'll risk it until many others come out saying that they've used a particular carbon fiber pole repeatedly in extreme 4-season expedition weather without problems. Even then, aluminum still has the benefit of being somewhat friendlier to field repairs.

It's ridiculous asking me for an example of personal failure. I'm not a manufacturer, designer or even sponsored. I'm not rich. I don't have a support team. I'm not going to risk my life on something inherently and needlessly risky and expensive.

Hey Eugene,

I didn't know if your issue with integrity was a personal one or something you have heard though the grape vine. I have my own personal experiences with carbon fiber tent poles and they usually were dependent on how the materials were made. I am just looking for input.

I have heard you say alot about cold weather and how it makes carbon fiber brittle. Though cold weather has the abbility to make everything brittle I think the tempatures most folks camp in are a non-issue. Please remember that modern aircraft are built with lots of carbon fiber, and the airframes experience temperatures well below any place on earth.

It looked like the type of argument you were making was that if someone couldn't prove it's bad, then it's not bad. I hate that.

Please note that I haven't said there's no way, never, that I would ever use carbon fiber in the cold. I'd like that, but the poles would have to be proven to be worthy of it. I believe that if you want to successfully market carbon fiber poles to the 4-season crowd, you have to find a way to prove that the poles can handle everything a 4-season tent is expected to handle, and that has to be done in the field.

Now if you market your poles as only for 3-season use, then that's great.

The problem with using carbon poles for 4 season is exactly what I mentioned earlier: the tents made for 4 season use are not well suited for a carbon fiber pole. Four season tents tend to be tunnel or dome. You can (and I believe Roger Caffin did this) modify the design of your tunnel (or dome) so that there aren't any curves in the poles.

I can't find the thread, but there was a very good discussion about this sort of thing.

"Does the cost keep you from buying them or is it an integrity issue?"

Cost.

To me, it was an integrity issue. Mine broke on me three times! Each time, the replacement was free and fast — but that didn't restore confidence.

When I sold my thrice-replaced poles (with caveats and all of course) — the unfortunate buyer broke a section again while setting up his tent!

Mine was custom-made for the Big Agnes Seedhouse 2 SL.

Hey Eugene,

I defiantly wasn't trying to start an argument or offend you in any way. If any of my statements did then I am very sorry and please forgive me. I am just looking for detailed input.

That means if you have a friend that has them and he felt they were crap then I would like to know that. If your friend told you they broke at the ferrule in the middle of a storm ruining his trip I would like to know that as well. I am just looking for examples and they don't have to be personal.

I hope this clears everything up.

As far as 3 season and 4 season use goes I don't think it makes sense to make only one size and type of pole. As aluminum poles get bigger in size they also get more burly. Thats what I intend to do. Make a 2-3 different sized poles depending on your application because as we all know nothing is perfect for every application.

Currently carbon fiber poles are built using uni-directional fibers. That's why when they all break its at a ferrule or its a split down the lenght of the pole. Uni-directional fibers are great for things not intended to bend but they are not so great for products that need to bend and have high hoop strength (tent poles). I have yet to see a properly engineered commercially available carbon fiber tent pole. Thats what I aim to do. I have been building poles using a combination of layups including biaxial fibers which are perfect for tent poles.

It all comes down to construction. Compare the difference between a fiberglass ugly stick fishing pole and a pultruted fiberglass rod. They are both made out of fiberglass but they are completely different in terms of strength. It's almost impossible to break an ugly stick fishing rod while its relatively easy break the pultruted rod.

"Currently carbon fiber poles are built using uni-directional fibers."
Yep, that is the problem. Roger explained that sometime ago . He also outlined possible workarounds , something similar to what you are doing if I remember correctly.
Franco

Lawson, I'd like to see you succeed.

As far as the unidirectional thing, I'm sure that has some to do with it, but keep in mind that unidirectional composite springs are used on the Corvette and some midweight commercial vehicles. Adding a few winds in other directions would certainly make it less prone to failure.

It may be completely unfeasible, but I'd like to see something like an aramid weave around the carbon fiber to help contain failures. In my mind, a mind that currently has a killer headache, I can see aramid possibly preventing total tent collapse in some situations. If nothing else, it should help hold the shards together, which may prevent them from tearing the tent.

Yes, I use CF tent poles for summer and winter tents, and they have taken some VERY bad weather.

But … if you use the wrong sort of CF tubing you can have an absolute disaster. And if you use the wrong sort of pole design you can have a disaster too. But note that I have also had similar disasters with Easton poles!

There are many sorts of CF tubing, so let's break them into two classes: those which are pultruded and those with a 2D construction.
* The pultruded ones have the fibres all running along the length of the tube, and are made by a process which combines PULling and exTRUsion – hence the name. many kite tubes are pultruded, as are many arrow shafts: its a cheap process.
* The 2D ones have the fibres going along the tube and around the tube – a 2-Dimensional pattern. This is more complex and dearer to make.

When you bend a pultruded tube there are huge shear forces inside the tube between the opposite sides of the tube, and these forces have to be taken by the plastic alone. The result is that the tubes split easily, full length. Been there, had that.

When you bend a 2D tube the same forces are there, but now you have a wrapped layer of fibres around the tube for the full length. These carbon fibres take the strain, not the plastic. As a result, the tubes are MUCH stronger in bend. That said, they cannot take a prebend the way Al poles can, and you should limit the radius of curvature to bigger than (say) 2 m.

There are two ways of making 2D tubes.
* One way is to take 2-D woven CF fabric and wrap it around a mandrel. The early Fibraplex poles were made this way. The design is strong, but depends on the person doing the wrapping, and may be a but flexible.
* The other way requires a huge machine. A layer of pultruded fibres is put over a mandrel, then a layer of fibres is wrapped around them. Then another layer of fibres is pultruded over this, and another layer wrapped around, and then another layer pultruded. You end up with 5 layers.

The 5-layer 2D wrap design is extremely strong and crushproof and doesn't split. As far as I know there is ONE machine in Korea which makes this stuff. I have seen a photo of the machine once, but I cannot find the web site now. **If anyone knows the URL or the name of the company I would be truly grateful.**

I have had my CF poles break once. The tent was loaded with snow and then it was hit with a hard downward vortex of wind, in a storm. The noise of the break was like a cannon going off. The pole had a clean snap which could be repaired in the field. But the deflection before it broke was incredible.

If anyone wants to use CF poles, just make sure you have a genuine 5-layer 2D wrap version. Some 'carbon fibre' arrows shafts (eg some Carbon Express ones) are pultruded fibreglass with a dusting of carbon fibres over the outside. They break easily. I got caught once.

Cheers

Roger

Fibra Plex tent tubes and carbon express arrows(and other arrow shafts), are "table rolled" not "pultruded". And the "5 layer" carbon tube you are referring to, is almost surely made up of layers of uni-directional pre-preg "fabric". no pultruded tube, there would be no reason for using it. The layers are laid up over a mandrel 90 degrees to each other, this is an industry standard. None of these tubes are the "ideal" tube for doing hooped tent poles, but some work great for the money.

Cost!

The only double wall tent I have hung on to is a Hubba which would be carried a tad more frequently if the weight could be reduced just a smidgeon. The Hex is used quite a bit as a two man but I would be tempted to use it as a solo if I could reduce the pole wt.

The 5-layer 2D wrapped tubes are a nice idea but I think the 3 layers of pultruted carbon fiber add extra weight without adding the right kind of strength. I think it makes more sense to build a tube using a layup of fibers that run at 0, 45 and 90 degrees in the right combinations maximizing stiffness, flex, hoop strength and impact resistance.

Before I move forward I need to find out if there is a market for replacement carbon fiber poles, especially since it would require that I buy a huge minimum order of specially designed pre-pregged carbon fiber.

I have been experimenting with building my own carbon fiber tent poles for sometime now and have a tent design that I want to bring to market. I contacted Fibraplex on 11/11 in regards to a 100 pole bulk order and didn't receive an email back until 12/09. I replied to Linas email the same day and he still has never responded. So customer service won't be hard to compete with and I have been working with an engineer to come up with the perfect layup so the product won't be hard to compete with either.

Do you prefer to have the poles assembled or would you like to assemble them yourself?

If I can build a better carbon fiber tent pole, thats factory assembled for free, has a lifetime warranty and sell for similar price or less would you be interested?

Are you searious ? Dont you see whats going on with UL ?
I bet all of the high quality cottage manufacturers have not believed their business would run that good…

Short told, my answer to your Question is: YES !

Yes, when will my Fly Creek 2 poles be ready? ;-)

here's my order for a set for my Copper Spur UL 1 ..

slightly off topic (slightly :)) does anyone know the construction of the MSR poles for the Reflex series?- they seem pretty stout and I haven't had any issues (yet), but would be curious on what design they chose

Sounds Good….I just hope there are more than three people.

Do you care more about strength, weight or a combination of the two? What reasonable weight would you like to see?

Fibraplex claims 7 grams per foot
Easton FX claims 9.33 grams per foot