Natick Labs R & D recommended no wool layers

[Dewey Riesterer]

Since you are in northern Idaho, I imagine that you know where Kootenay Lake is and this is where I started "bushwhacking" on dayhikes in 1956 and fishing in 1952. We would work on the north-eastern shore of the lake in winter for 8 hours per day, crossing the open "North Arm" before 06:00 as when the sun hits the water, it becomes too rough for even large boats, 8 ft. waves and ice floes everywhere….two boatfuls of loggers drowned in my short time there.

So, we were essentially out all day and, when winter camping in the same area, I would be out usually from Monday to Friday, alone, in Kokanee Glacier Park, where it would be -20*F at night…and I had no heat. I HAVE fallen partially into the creek, wrung out my wool and put it back on and it soon FEELS warm. I have never found wet synthetics to feel warm, actually the reverse.

I don't know about combat, I have only worked with Canadian SAR techs and in winter conditions in the Rockies. So, maybe a combat infantryman might prefer synthetics, I honestly cannot say as I have never been in this situation.

I HAVE worn a LOT of Canadian WWII and Korean "battledress" and naval uniforms and also German, Swedish and British combat gear….this was what we had for work clothing when I started and it worked, was woolen, but too heavy and scratchy for recreational uses, IMHO.

"Horses for courses", I guess, maybe some new synthetic will beat merino, but, I have yet to experience this and am very happy with Icebreaker. YMMV, as always.

[George Matthews]

Here's an enlightening video showing a group of scientists doing research on a new wooly product based on basic ultra light lamb yarn (bully). I believe they are from the Middle East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF558u6Q_8

VIDEO

[Dean F.]

And, Dewey, a logger can't blow $1000 on an ECWCS. And pay to replace it every five years as the high-loft insulation dies. And don't forget what I said about soldiers breaking stuff- everyone here, even if they are wool and down fanatics, will admit that they require a bit more care than synthetics. (Moreso down than wool.) A soldier who is issued his clothing rather than paying for it isn't as motivated about taking excellent care of it.

One would THINK that since his life depends upon it the soldier would be motivated, but experience shows that this is rarely the case The ideal end point for a soldier apparently is to take the minimum effort required to maintain equipment, so that it falls apart JUST AS his deployment ends… :o)

I would also propose that the ECWCS is an INCREDIBLY optimized set of synthetic cold weather gear. It has properties that exceed what WE think of when we are considering base-layers in the wool vs synthetics holy war on backpacking forums. Thus it isn't a good guide for private purchases. I.e. a backpacker should NOT decide to go synthetic just because the military uses it.

I'm a wool guy, too. (And I've worn the ECWCS.)

And, sorry Dewey, but yes- soldiers often get pushed in ways that loggers don't, to the point that personal hygeine, foot care, gear care, etc, is necessarily neglected. Not that loggers don't work hard- they obviously do- but there are different pressures on soldiers that prevent them at times from even remotely taking good care of themselves or their equipment. And if they do get a spare moment WEAPONS get maintenance priority. After all, by definition commanders tell soldiers to do stuff that will get them injured or killed. Pushing them to the point that they can't stop to dry out their skivvies is no stretch at all.

Soldiering is not simply well-armed hiking.

[David Olsen]

I sit here typing in the 55 degree garage in a sweat soaked
wool long john top after a morning run so am amused by this
thread.

Notice that for the most cold sensitive parts of the body,
the feet and hands, the military uses wool.

I disagree with the durability issues of down and wool.
I have surplus down and wool from the Korean war that still
works (great for car camping and hunting) but have seen many synthetic bags loose all loft in a season of OB courses.

In a different battle environment, where smell or noise
(like in the Vietnam war) may give away your presence, wool may be the better choice.

Combine that with the melting plastic on skin issue, I bet
they go to a thin wool inner layer in time.

My experience has been that whatever you use next to your
skin works best in the very wet conditions if it is thin.
If capiliene is midweight or heavier, it tends to hold too
much moisture and chills more than the same wool layer.
On one multiday wet snow OB course with too little food and
long miles I could never get the midweight polyester to
dry out and was mildly hypo which was scary.

[larry savage]

I hesitated to put my two cents in this thread because it is only one more anecdotal experience not backed by a scientific study, but as always, this didn't go gently into the night.
The lack of significant wool research might have as much to due with some well placed quartermaster's dislike of wool and moths and the fact the military clothing is a low bidder process with ties to material companies with a vested interest or the fact that no one could even produce enough material for a clothing run. Snythetic's advantage still also lies in it's inexpensive production cost.
Every piece of clothing I was issued was a compromise and we quickly learned to trade up within the NATO ring for better stuff. A look at the military requirement in sleeping bags shows chopped, stapled synthetics being used at odds with the leading edge information on insulations. Companies like DuPont and Gore have huge interests in military contracts, far greater then the performance wool industry.
I would be more interested in looking at what the extreme adventure racers are using,[this is where I found blends of possum down, merino wool, and synthetics] or Will Steger's two cents on this.
I work outside in the eastern range of the Cascades nearly everyday of the year and when the weather turns too bad to work we play. I rotate various levels of wool for all of this.

[Mark Regalia]

The Brits did a documentary recently on how it was to live in the middle ages. A group of people lived as close to the way they lived in the English middle ages as they could. The housing, the tools, and clothing. The typical clothing were loose wool pants, and loose fitting wool blouses. The camera crew wore all the high tech clothing we are use to using. At the end of this period one thing that they noted was the folks wearing the ancient wool clothing were actually more comfortable than the film crew. Draw your own conclusions. But I am not terribly surprised. I know when bicyling in the rain I find it better to just surrender to the rain and get soaked rather than trying to protect yourself from it. I found the same thing when working on tree planting crews in the winter on the North Calif coast. Nothing rainproof I wore was as comfortable as just letting my clothes soak through.

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