Will my feet stay warm?

Justin-

I wore Inov8 Flyroc 310 trail runners this past weekend with thinner Teko merino wool socks in the SE corner of the Smokies. On Friday we had temps around 25-35 degrees. On Saturday the ground we covered was blanketed with 2-6" of frozen snow and temps were 20-25 degrees. I wore my fleece sleep socks on Saturday which greatly helped with the cold wetness from the snow/ice. My feet started out cold but once we got going they were warm the rest of the day. A traditional boot/mountaineering sock in combo with the trail runners probably would've worked fine as well. Much below 20 you might want a vapor barrier sock as well but you can definitely get by with trail runners year round here.

Edit: You must've been editing while I was writing my reply. Haha. The combo you have pictured should be fine here year round. Also, depending on how hot/cold you run, you will probably want extra socks for camp and maybe some kind of down or synth fill booty or sock.

Thanks Chris.

Will a cheap bag, such as the one pictured above, be an effective VB?

I wear a plastic bag like that around my feet, underneath my socks. The temperatures here can be -40, and have been recently. I've never used vapor barriers, but have been experimenting since reading about them here on BPL. I find that with the cheap plastic bag, and one pair of socks, my feet stay perfectly warm walking 5-8 miles (that's all I have put in with them). FWIW

Hi Juston,

I use Reynold's Oven bags as a VBL on my feet, and they work very well!

Last weekend, we saw temps down to about 12 degrees F and I was wearing:

REI PolyPro Sock Liner
Reynold's Oven bag
Smartwool Hiker Sock
Innov8 FlyRoc 310
MLD LightSnow eVent Gaiters

My feet stayed very warm throughout the whole weekend. Definitely need some fresh liner socks each day and some down booties for evening wear around camp.

The Oven bags are a little stronger (one pair lasts me ~30 miles, maybe more) than plastic shopping bags and a pair weighs 0.6 oz.

Give them a try. One of the best things I've tried out this winter. When Temps drop below 25 degrees F, they are very helpful for me.

Bread bags are sturdier and if you use a bit of duct tape
over the top of the foot, you can prevent your toes from
blowing out the front of the bags. Then use another bread sack
over the outer smart wools AND the insoles with duct tape again over the top of the foot.

This way your outer heavy socks and insoles stay dry.

I've had bread sacks with the tape last 7 days.

Here's the prefered (by me) VB concept.

From the skin out:
===========

1. Wear cheap-o plastic bags, right on your bare skin. Do not use liners! The bag of choice is a thin produce bag from the grocery store. Avoid bags with excessive pleats and folds.

2. Put on a THICK sock over the liner.

3. Put another plastic bag OVER the thick sock.

4. Put on the shoe.

5. Add gaitors if you think you need 'em (they can be very helpful)

– – – more info – – –

a. Your SHOES will get soaked.

b. your thick socks should stay pretty dry.

c. Your feet will be warm as long as you are moving and active.

d. Your feet will get cold FAST if you hang out.

e. The cheap-o bags will self destruct after one use.

f. Your feet will smell awful!

@ Dan & Mike

Both of you have stated that you place the VB right on the skin. It was my understanding that one should wear a liner sock to wick away the sweat from one's foot. Thus to avoid problems such as chafing, blisters, ect.

What is your experience?

> d. Your feet will get cold FAST if you hang out.

What would you suggest for something like a Scout Klondike Derby where there's significant hanging out time between events, especially for us leaders?

@ Adam

I'll check out the Reynold's Oven bags as a possible option. Interesting idea. Thanks.

@ Mike (again)

>>>a. Your SHOES will get soaked.<<<

These particular shoes, La Sportiva Wildcat GTX, have a Gore-Tex liner to prevent this issue.

Knowing that… would you alter your plan of action?

Goretex doesn't work very well in the conditions we get here. Because the liner is at the inner portion of the shoe your shoes will absorb water and then freeze up. At that point the goretex stops being breathable.

I'd stick to the non GTX version.

@ Chris,

If I did stick with the Non GTX version, and I chose to use an additional VB as the outermost layer… wouldn't the entire shoe become wet and freeze up? I'm thinking this would be super cold in the morning and would take some time to warm up. At least with the GTX version, you would just lose some breathability.

I'm trying to figure out what would be worse. Maybe my thinking is off. :D I appreciate your input.

I will second Chris that GTX shoes don't work all that well here. I am fine while moving wearing non-Gore-Tex Salomon Trail Runners and Smartwool Adrenaline Socks even when post holing through snow. When I stop, I have to change socks quickly though, because they get cold fast. I generally bring a couple of produce bags to put on over my dry socks so I can wear my wet trail runners while doing camp chores. I also bring a plastic bag to put my shoes in and sleep with them either under my quilt or under a stuff sack pillow (full of hiking clothes/raingear/etc) to keep them from freezing. Obviously when the mercury really drops I have to put them under my quilt.

I haven't used a GTX shoe down here in many many years. All I know is that the majority of people on this site, a lot with far more experience than myself, nix GTX shoes for breathable models that drain well and use them in combo with a VB sock or GTX sock.

I have no doubt i'm wrong. LOL I'm just trying to understand why it matters when using a VB. Isn't the point of a VB to keep everything in for warmth? Do you really need it to breath?

Wouldn't the GTX keep the inside dry and the outside wet? A non GTX would allow the whole shoe to be wet. You would have to use a second VB… more weight. More of the shoe would have to dry out. A wet shoe weighs a lot more as well.

Maybe I should wear one of each and just got try it out. :D Sorry for being a PITA. I just want to understand the concept. Thanks a million.

Hi Juston,

I wear the liner sock for comfort. Your feet could definitely sweat inside a VBL. So, essentially, your feet may be wet (from sweat) and warm.
That being said, I believe that I read somewhere that one would not typically get blisters as a result of sweaty feet in a VBL. Actually, the salinity of sweat will keep your feet from softening and getting hot spots which lead to blisters. Someone may need to check my math on that one though.
I've read other results of people who say that, when they wear a VBL, that part of the body stops sweating all together. Again, may need my math checked on this.
I'd give it a go and see how it fairs for you. In my opinion, it was the best $3 and < 1oz I added all winter.

I use sock liners under my VBLs, and I do it for one reason only: my plastic bags last way longer that way.

Another thing I'll throw out there: The second barrier that Senor Olsen suggests definitely has some merit, particuarly in "warm" cold temps (greater than ~10F), if you're using footwear that is less than waterproof.

I've found that if temps stay in the single digits, my footwear will keep things dry. If it gets warmer though, they'll wet through after a day on the trails, due to melting snow. Then the wool socks get wet, and there's a definite difference in warmth when that happens.

I usually don't bother with the second bag, as I tend to use insulated footwear in the winter, but if I were gonna be backpacking multiple days in the snow with trail runners, I'd probably go with the dual barrier approach.

A lot of it is personal preference, though.

"I use sock liners under my VBLs, and I do it for one reason only: my plastic bags last way longer that way."

Ditto

My fav under sock is thin neoprene with no liner, then wool,
then bread sack with tape with the insole inside.

The insole inside really increases the life of the bread
sack.

Is the slippery bag (or silnylon liners) a problem? I tried vb socks for the first time last week during a multi-day marathon of building snow forts and tramping around the snow with my kids. I layered somewhat thin wool socks, then a plastic bag, then another thin sock in trail shoes worn inside of uninsulated NEOS overshoes.

It felt odd having a slick layer between the two socks. I'm not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. Otherwise I was very happy with the system.

If the slick layer is a problem I was thinking of making some socks from Polartec Windbloc, which is a double-velour fleece with a PU membrane in the middle. I don't know how good a vapor barrier it would make.

“It's a snug fit inside the shoe”

I don’t know how you can handle this. Snug invites numb toes and cold feet. I would suggest finding a way to loosen the layers up.

-Barry

>>>I don’t know how you can handle this. Snug invites numb toes and cold feet. I would suggest finding a way to loosen the layers up.

-Barry<<<

When I say snug, It's almost as if you've tightened your shoelaces when in fact you haven't. I haven't experienced numbness or cold with my limited trials. The Wildcat has a wide toe box which leaves lots of room for circulation. I'll keep an eye out for any problems and if needed I can always go with a slightly thinner sock. Thanks for your input.

Hi Dave

> Bread bags are sturdier and if you use a bit of duct tape
over the top of the foot,
> you can prevent your toes from blowing out the front of the bags.

We would love a photo of this!

Cheers

I wear goretex salomon XA pro 3-d trail runners with montbell Schoeller Dynamic gaiters to make it more boot-like. Another added advantage of the gtx is you have to step in liquid over the tongue of the shoe to get wet. Which I haven't had to yet…growing up in the swamps where an alligator needs a snorkel teaches you how to keep your feet dry) Wear very thin coolmax base layer sock covered with a .5 mil very lite 4 gal trash bag ( about the same as a produce bag which might have less extra "baggage" ) hold that up with a hair scrunchy. Cover with light coolmax trail socks. Really surprising how little insulation is necessary from the socks. Been wearing this all this seasons cool weather including for ex. up Celo from Boylens Creek ( there's a climb for ya!) and this past week at Panthertown, @ Standing Indian and Pisgah/Cedar Rock snow & ice all along the way especially at Pisgah and stayed toasty and dry with some pretty good climbs and longish 10 + mile days. Actually/surprisingly the liners got barely damp. I've tried this from @ 20 to 40 above, but no slushy snow. Don't know why it wouldn't work in dry snow unless temps were close to freezing but in lots of looser/wetter snow the outer or double liner or vbl even w/ a goretex shoe might be a good idea. Your foot can feel sort of slippery inside the shoe but No blisters.. not even close. Also haven't worn out a bag yet but swap after each day. (the bags must weigh all of 1/10th of an ounce )

NM