Help me choose a softshell jacket

Michael B; great call on the Ferrata- I don't think the price can be beat, though the hood looks a bit simplistic (which may be desirable to some).

Chad, I wear my Black Ice softshell for climbing and backpacking whenever the weather gets below about 45 degrees, regardless of wind. I simply can’t do this with my Gamma MX hoody made from Powershield as it traps too much internal moisture. All of the membrane softshells I have used have left me with a wet back if I wear them carrying a pack uphill, regardless of temperature of layers.

However, as Michael B indicates, in order to use Dryskin over a wide range of conditions and temperatures adjustment of under layers is necessary.

For winter in PA, the Catskills, and Adirondacks I usually wear a wool baselayer, a power stretch top, and the Black Ice.

If it is either very, very windy, or if I will be carrying a pack up steep hills all day, I add a Marmot Driclime wind shirt UNDER the Powerstretch top. This keeps my skin bone dry regardless of how hard I am working… I have never have to add a shell unless I am on a ice climb with a large amount of running water.

This system also works with my Patagonia Ready Mix, but the Black Ice breathes better, is better fitting, stretches better, and is more insulating. The Ready Mix blocks more wind (a non-issue when wearing the Driclime as a baselayer as it adds wind protection as well) and resists water very well.

By the way, everyone should have a Driclime wind shirt!

Why would I need a shell over a dryskin jacket? That kind of defeats the purpose. I want a softshell to replace the fleece and the shell since a) Its simpler b) it breathes better and c) I have no precipitation to worry about.

I guess I should have mentioned that this will most likely be for day or overnight trips climbing, hiking, snow shoeing, or ski touring. For longer trips I definitely will use the shell/fleece/baselayer and forego the bulk, weight, and redundancy of the softshell.

On another note, that MEC ferrata is exactly what I'm looking for. Half the price of a beyond jacket with all the same features I'd want. I just won't get the custom fit. A worthy trade. Thanks!

> Why would I need a shell over a dryskin jacket?

because it's wind resistance is more like a windpro fleece than a shell. I found dryskin was great when the wind was below 10mph or so. I would guess than 20mph was still ok, but I think I was noticing it was more breezy than I wanted. When face serious winds I was really started to chill.

–Mark

Isn't wb400 a membrane like goretex or event? I'm kinda puzzled why it's being discussed as a softshell. I guess this highlites to me why i find the whole softshell issue a manufactured term, and one that doesn't really exist.
We already have the terms waterproof/water-resistant, windproof/wind-resistant, insulation and base, and all fabrics fall under one of those terms, with room to overlap at each end of their spectrum.

> isn't wb400 a membrane like goretex or event?

it's less breathable than gore-tex according to the data from U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center. It's also fairly stiff and not that stretchy. Great for when you aren't that active and want some armor on.

–Mark

It does complicate things that there could be different variations of the same material like wb400 or powershield. I bought my wb400 jacket from beyondfleece something like 6-7 years ago, so it may have changed over time. When I try on the mammut lazer jacket, it does feel much stiffer than what I have (but I can't remember if my jacket has softened over time). My jacket is also noticeably more stretchy then my powershield jacket as well as warmer, more windproof, more waterproof, and more breathable (the wb400 is heavier and thicker). There is no comparison between the wb400 I have and my goretex jacket in terms of breathability: the wb400 is orders of magnitude more breathable.

So, my wb400 jacket from beyondfleece would satisfy the criteria of being warm enough and windproof and rain and snow proof enough to replace both a shell and fleece. A dryskin jacket would be much lighter, dramatically less windproof, and more versatile at warmer temperatures.

"Chad, I wear my Black Ice softshell for climbing and backpacking whenever the weather gets below about 45 degrees, regardless of wind. I simply can’t do this with my Gamma MX hoody made from Powershield as it traps too much internal moisture. All of the membrane softshells I have used have left me with a wet back if I wear them carrying a pack uphill, regardless of temperature of layers."

I think many people here are forgetting one simple thing:

Each person is different when it comes to wearing clothing to keep warm in cold weather.

For me when climbing or backpacking in 45 degree weather I simply wear a long sleeve merino wool top. If I'm working hard I'll only be wearing a t-shirt.

Wyatt,

Well, you might try European brands if you want to be sure your money won't go to SUWA.

Disclosure: I'm a state officer for the Sierra Club in Nevada (Toiyabe chapter) and we're a big supporter of SUWA, who is trying to keep motorized ORVs form scarring Utah's wildlands. Wyatt, ya got a LOT of folks agin' ya. It may be a "free" country but there must be reasonable boundaries on that freedom to preserve our wildlands.

"Well, you might try European brands if you want to be sure your money won't go to SUWA."

That was kinda my line of thinking.

"Wyatt, ya got a LOT of folks agin' ya"

I'm all too aware, but I'm not going to just give up, and I'm certainly not going to fight for one side with my right hand while I fund the other with my left.

"there must be reasonable boundaries on that freedom to preserve our wildlands"

I totally agree.

In other news related to the topic at hand, I have also been looking at Sherpa Adventure Gear softshells, since they are relatively inexpensive. I sent them an email asking what material they use in their softshells. They said they currently use a polyester/spandex mix but for 2010 they will offer a softshell with Scholler Naturetec. That might be worth looking into when it comes out. Anyone have any experience with Sherpa stuff? How's the quality?

Just brainstorming here, but how about Paramo or a pertex/pile jacket? I have no direct experience with either one but they seem to fit what your looking for and have tons of positive reviews. BPL had a nice article on them a while back.

(I stumbled onto this thread/forum looking into similar issues.)

Good insights on this thread (thanks!). To add some other perspectives and in the hope of answering my own questions:
I have a Mtn Hardware Alchemy (Gore Windstopper) Beyond Cold Fusion Pants (WB-400) and Beyond Steel Shock (Durable Tweave). The 5 year, or so, Gore Wind Stopper, doesn't stop enough wind for me, but is a very versatile option for year round active material (water resistance is impressive) depending on layering. The WB-400 pants have a great comfort range and are nice, even in wind, with decent breath ability. By monitoring layering, you can affect/compensate for the wind stopping levels.

For me the Alchemy is too small to add enough thermal layers when needed and I consider it a 3 1/2 season jacket, unless active. For skiing and hanging out in the cold, it's not enough.

I have been trying to rationalize the purchase of a better fitting, Beyond Cold Fusion jacket, but can't pull the trigger (yet) due to cost. So, my question is about the apples to apples comparison of materials. Is there a resource/matrix? I'm trying to somehow compare Power Shield to WB-400, along with the other materials mentioned in this thread.

Here's the Beyond material comparison chart relative to Breath ability/Water/Warmth/Wind:
http://beyondclothing.com/files/content/product-matrix.pdf

Terry,
This is a bit dated, but has some comparative data.
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-testing.html

I have used Powershield and Powershield Light (gamma Mx) and find the light to have great stretch and drape, but it is prone to abrasion and delamination. I constantly poke holes in it when ice climbing. I find WB-400 to have more stretch than regular Powershield… dont know anything about other numbers though.

I have several Arc'teryx products and have been very satisfied. My Venta SV with the hood has been outstanding.