Help me choose a softshell jacket

Wyatt,
This summer I bought a Norrona falketind shell made of Gore-Tex Pro Shell, and it's one of the best shells I've ever owned. Norrona's exclusive US distributor is http://www.backcountry.com, and when I looked yesterday there were several Norrona softshells on sale at up to 50% off. My falketind shell is really state-of-the-art, and the product reviews at backcountry.com for other Norrona products are mostly glowing. Have a look and see what you think.

Wow, those do look very technical and well made. I wish they came from somewhere other than backcountry.com. Anyone else have any suggestions?

I guess I should mention how picky I am with brands that I buy. I won't buy anything from: Patagonia, TNF, Columbia, Cloudveil, OR, Black Diamond, backcountry.com, REI, and Mountain Haardwear. Yes I know thats almost everyone, but a few companies I've found that I will buy from are: Marmot, Arc'teryx, Mammut, RAB, and pretty much anyone thats not on the previous list. There are lots of brands I've never heard of, such as the one mentioned by the previous poster, so let me know any I'm missing.

My biggest problem is I don't have any local outdoor stores so its hard for me to tell online whether a jacket's going to work for what I want or not. There are tons of Arc'teryx softshells for example, but I can't tell how well each will block wind or how warm they are.

I'm a huge fan of Arc'teryx products. However their softshell collection doesn't really meet your requirements. I will suggest two. Arc'teryx Hercules Hoody… a personal favorite of mine, and the Arc'teryx Gamma MX Hoody. The latter being more favorable to your needs. Great pockets and I found the wind resistance to be more than sufficient. The Hurcules Hoody is also very wind resistant and provides ample warmth. Maybe too much warmth. Both are on the heavy side. The Hercules weighs in at 600grams and the Gamma MX weighs in at 595grams.

"I guess I should mention how picky I am with brands that I buy. I won't buy anything from: Patagonia, TNF, Columbia, Cloudveil, OR, Black Diamond, backcountry.com, REI, and Mountain Haardwear."

Hi Wyatt,

Not trying to start any disagreeable conversations here, but why are you not interested in buying from the above list? Is it product quality (for the manufacturers) or just a disagreement with their practices/principles? Just curious, really, not judging one way or the other.

I have to say that the products I own from Black Dimond and OR have been great! I suppose you have your reasons for not wanting to buy from them but it's your loss.

I personally love ORs' softshell jackets.

I don't want to turn this thread into any kind of a debate, but for the curious:
All those companies give money to the Conservation Alliance. I don't want my money being funnelled into groups and projects that I don't believe are right. Its a personal thing, and I don't expect others to follow suit. And as you would expect, I'm making it very tough on myself to find outdoor gear.

I appreciate someone following their conscience in a very real way, regardless of how difficult it might make things for them. Thanks for the answer.

Juston, thanks for the lowdown on Arc'teryx. If the price reflects the quality, their stuff has got to be incredible.

And Chad, yeah it IS my loss, as I really love the qulity of OR's gear.

Oh yeah, and how about Montbell softshells? Are they any good?

Wyatt,

I know you don't want to get off topic, but I think we have to just for a minute… I'm unfamiliar with the Conservation Alliance. I just read their mission statement online, but I would really like your input on them. What is it that turns you off to their goals and efforts? Please educate me. Thanks and I promise to get back on topic after your answer.

ETA – You pay for the name Arc'teryx, but their quality and products are top notch for sure. You won't be disappointed. When I crashed my motorcycle on 10.15.2009 I was wearing the Arc'teryx Hercules Hoody. It really saved my skin. I didn't have a scratch on me… well besides a broken leg. haha! I already bought another one. That's how much I love it.

To be honest, I haven't quite figured out the difference between softshell and hardshell. I'm old.

But I have a Montbell Peak Shell that I love. It's not a 'warm' jacket I guess, no insulation or anything. But it has a hood, pit zips, breathes well, and thoughtfully placed pockets that are accessible with a pack on. I use it on every trip I take in the winter around here. FWIW

Just to keep it simple, Hardshells are meant to keep water out. They are usually made of Gore-tex or eVent. They often don't provide insulation so layering is required. They don't stretch or move with the body. They typically don't breath well… thus pit zips ect.

Softshells are kinda the opposite. Water resistant, not proof. Wind resistant, not proof. Breath better, stretch and move with the body. They are usually softer and more comfortable to wear.

I hope that helps.

My main beef is with the Soutern Utah Wilderness Alliance, a recipient of Conservation Alliance funds. I don't believe in the way SUWA does things and I don't believe, in most cases, that wilderness is the answer. I enjoy wildlands, especially in Utah, as much as anyone but I do not think they are on the right path. Land use is an issue that I follow and feel strongly about, but my beliefs are personal and I don't expect everyone, especially many on this site, to understand.

In advance, let me say this issue is not up for debate. It's my opinion, I'm fine with others disagreeing with me, I'm not trying to change anyones mind, but I'm sure not going to change mine. Maybe you think I'm misguided, but please keep it to yourself or at least out of this thread. Thanks, and I hope that answers everyone's questions.

Back to softshells… :D

"I hope that helps."

It does Juston, thanks.

-30F – 30F is a 60F range. There will be no one item that could cover this range. Given the conditions you mentioned the answer for me would be a soft shell for 0-30F, and then insulation that I could layer on over the soft shell for when I stop or it gets colder. If I was somewhere where the temp was consistently below 0F (especially if it was dry) I would completely skip over a soft shell and go with an appropriate weight down jacket that had a good external shell and use venting to manage thermal comfort.

Your requirements were for very, very wind resistant. You might want to define this. If the wind is blowing do you want to have a sense of the wind. If the answer is no, then you want a <5CFM and might as well get a hardshell. If you want a slight sense of the wind (and the increased breathability) then I would suggest taking a look at the Rab Vapour Rise which has a CFM of 10, and between 100wt fleece equiv lining which I have found about right once I am moving fast and hard.

–Mark

I think schoeller wb400 is the best winter softshell out there: warm, stretchy, windproof, and very water resistant. I also find it very breathable and comfortable when working hard.

You mention Mammut. The lazer jacket is an option: a hooded softshell out of wb400. I am not sure if you are a medium, but climb high's outlet is I think the mammut outlet, and they have the lazer light in medium:

http://www.climbhighoutlet.com/mammut-laser-light-jacket-mens

they have several arc teryx too. Alternatively, you may just want to have one custom made for you by beyondfleece, since they do wb400 too, and that would get you a perfect fit and the features you want.

I think wb400 is better all around than power shield (noticeably stretchier and warmer), but power shield would be worth looking for too.

I own a Montbell softshell and it's rather good for very cold, windy weather. Montbells soft shells breath great but don't do well in rain, anything beyond a light sprinkle and they wet out. This may have somthing to do with Montbell being located in Japan where heavy rains are the norm and any soft shells simply don't keep the rain out very well.

Don't get me wrong, the Montbell softshells are well made, great pices of gear.

Ibex makes good softshells. Too heavy for me (I don't particularly like softshells) but many rave reviews, and I think their merino and loden products are wonderful. http://www.ibexwear.com Don't know their politics or contributing habits.

Thanks for all the advice guys. Based on advice, more winter hiking, and tons of research I'm changing priorites here. Breathability is now number one. From what I've found, the most comfortable, breathable, and durable material is the Scholler Dryskin Extreme. I'm having trouble finding any jackets made from the stuff anymore though. Mammut still sells some pants made from it, but thats all I'm finding. Anyone know of any? If not, what's going to be the most similar?

Also, while we're on the subject, has anyone had any experience with Mammut's other softshell material SOFtech? I can't find any info on it regarding construction or properties besides marketing stuff.

wyatt, I use a Cloudveil Black Ice jacket for all winter activities- it's made from Schellor Dryskin Extreme. For me, it is perfect (helmet compatibale hood lined with, good pockets that I can access with a harness on, great fit, great stretch, etc…)

The material sacrifices wind protection for breathability- it is about 75% windproof, but breathes better than anything else I have used. For me, staying dry in the winter is more about managing internal moisture than external, so it's good stuff.

Beyond Clothing still uses the material:
http://beyondclothing.com/customize/cold-play-x-jacket/

Mammut's laser Light was also made from Dryskin Extreme…

http://www.climbhighoutlet.com/mammut-laser-light-jacket-mens

That link indicates that the Laser Light is made from Wb-400, which is not nearly as breathable (but much more windproof) than Dryskin Extreme. I know the Laser is made from WB-400, so I wonder if the title or description is wrong. You could always call and find out.

It looks like the Black Ice is no longer made.

All the Laser jackets I've seen are listed as the WB-400.

Seem like everyone is switching to less breathable fabrics in favor or waterproofing, which sucks because there are already a billion options for that. For me thats pointless as well, since I live in a frigid dry desert. No rain, rarely snow, and if there is, it stays frozen for a long long time.

I didn't notice before that beyond had a Dryskin jacket. It looks like thats exactly what I need (as well as my only option for a Dryskin fabric). Time to start saving up. Are pit zips a necessary option since its so breathable already?

The Black Ice has been discontinued for some time now. I got one from STP, and a second from Ebay as it really is a perfect jacket for my needs.

If a hood is not absolutely necessary, check out the Westcomb Ronin and Cloudveil Rayzar from STP. I have the Rayzar for ice cragging- it's a slightly boxier cut than the Black Ice, but is otherwise very, very nice. You might not need the Wb-400 additions however…

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/206,1464Y_Westcomb-Ronin-Soft-Shell-Jacket-Schoeller-3XDRY-For-Men.html

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/206,44716_Cloudveil-Rayzar-Jacket-Schoeller-Water-Resistant-For-Men.html

I see no need for pitzips in a Schoeller Dryskin jacket, especially if it has large pockets with a mesh lining.Of course, what I wear under the jacket means just as much as the jacket itself for managing internal moisture.

Edit: Cloudveil made a Schoeller beanie at one point, which you might find on Ebay at some point if you want to get a hoodless jacket. Also, I found that Cloudveil's older Inertia Peak jackets to be almost identical in performance to Dryskin. I did not keep one because the hood did not fit well over a helmet.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone is going towards waterproof jackets instead of breathable soft shell. It’s just that the companies that do make the most breathable jackets are in the list of business you won’t buy from.

No soft shell is waterproof and most are breathable. That being said no soft shell is anywhere near breathable enough to keep you from wetting out during activity, even in the snow.

For me the key to keeping dry when hiking in a soft shell is to only wear it when it is cold (below 15 degrees)and very windy (at least 15mph). In addition when wearing a soft shell I'll only a silk weight base layer under my soft shell. Another thing I've found helpful is to wear a very thin soft shell.

Good luck.

MEC still has the ferrata:

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442621808&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302699337&bmUID=1260757305897

I have a hat out of dryskin. I like it a lot, but I still think wb400 is a much better winter material for winter use, since with a dryskin jacket you are still going need to have a shell layer to go over it, and you are probably going to want to wear a fleece layer under it. At least that is what most people would need to go above treeline here in the winter where it is very cold and windy. It part this depends on the temps you will primarily have to deal with (10F and below: wb400; 50F to 10F: dryskin; or so). Either could be made to work very well.