Trekking and hunting

A couple of thoughts.

I think the ideal market for the pak-rifle is the "enthusiast hunter." In other words, a fairly significant number of people take fishing gear on backpacking trips; this rifle is in the same kind of realm. Something you can take to add to your enjoyment of your trip… with the added advantage of some good food. At a pound, it's an easy thing to add to a pack, whereas any "similar" predecessor has weighed about 3 times more (or worse).

In the woods of northern Michigan and Minnesota it would be quite realistic to supplement your food with game. If I were headed out for a couple weeks, I probably wouldn't ditch a full week of dinners, but several days worth would be fine. And as Josh L. pointed out, I'm frequently able to supplement with some kind of foraged vegetation (I'd like to be a lot better at that). It's one way I like to spend time once I get to camp… even a 15 mile day gets us to camp mid-afternoon to early evening most days.

"Now if Lynn had suggested nobbling 99% of the breeding females, that WOULD seriously impact the population growth."

I would also support this proposition, as long as enough breeding females are kept around to supply a next generation to work so I can retire…

"All complaining about how "a hard man would be good to find". ;}"

Naaah. Many would adapt quickly and happily to same-sex relationships. After all, no one knows a woman's body better than another …ummmm….

"Nah. The only thing that would change is then it would be all those women ripping each other's throats out over the few remaining males. Ditto pedophilia. ;}"

Many centuries of harmoniuos harems indicate otherwise. Harems are a very stable family structure, and a great place to raise kiddies. Not to say there isn't plenty of back-stabbing and posturing going on, but it's the men of the harem's who run around with guns trying to protect their family, not the women.

Ok, I'd be all for harems, as I am certain that my many positive attributes would be recognized and I would be one of the 1%-ers. But- harmonious? I doubt it, Lynn.

I watched a news special several years ago about an American woman who had been… er… "hired" into the harem of one of the Sultan of Brunei's sons. The group was one ceaseless catfight. Granted in this extreme case much of the strife was due to competition over a scarce resource- i.e. the mealticket in the form of the prince, who would hand out $100,000 necklaces after a particularly good night- but I nonetheless have my doubts about the "harmonious harem" motif.

There is a reason that the Chinese character for "strife" is two women in one house… :o)

If you've got data that isn't based upon the threat of having your and your childrens' heads chopped off (or, in the case of modern religious polygamy, beatings and/or utter social ostracization) lemme see it. I'm always willing to learn something new.

And it would sure be something entertaining to show to my wife. :o)

Aw, come on Dean. I was just stirring the pot a little. I'm sure, like anything else in life, there are more harmonious and less harmonious harems. I still think a well run harem (the sort where the women are free to stay or leave and disputes are settled fairly) is an ideal environment to raise young children. I think this "two-working parents" throwing their kids in daycare is nonsense. I work with folks (I'm sure we all know this situation) where parents have three kids under five, and both work full time. Give me a harem any day over that…

"But- harmonious? I doubt it, Lynn."

+1 In Iraq, having one wife was rapidly becoming the norm.
If a man there took more than one, he generally had to provide a house for each to avoid strife. I talked to one older guy who said if he had it to do over he probably wouldn't have-too expensive, too many hassles about who got the most "face" time, etc.

So, um, you're saying no good data to show my wife?

Rats.

"So, um, you're saying no good data to show my wife?"

There are harmonious polygamous marriages, but the pressure on the man to maintain that harmony IS huge. It is the limiting factor in how many women a man can have under islamic law…he absolutely must treat them all equally and fairly. Tough job. A lot of mormons seem to have good polygamous relationships. It would be esaier to be a swinging single than a polygamist male IMHO. Just as much 'action' without all the hassle.

It's four wives under shar'ia, right? Or is that a regional thing?

"So, um, you're saying no good data to show my wife?"

Au contraire, Cher Acrosome. I think she'd be delighted. :)

"It's four wives under shar'ia, right? Or is that a regional thing?"

Regional and sect specific. If you are a Shia, then you can marry under Nikah mut'ah, and I think that's a better option for a modern couple ;)

Correction…..there are no Mormons with good polygamous marriages..

"Correction…..there are no Mormons with good polygamous marriages.."

???

>>"Correction…..there are no Mormons with good polygamous marriages.."

>>???

David means that polygamy has been banned by the Mormon church for years (1890). I believe it was a condition of Utah becoming a state…

"David means that polygamy has been banned by the Mormon church for years (1890). I believe it was a condition of Utah becoming a state…"

Wink, wink; Nudge, nudge.

What a delightful thread! I wish the "other" ones had been as lighthearted and positive as this! I guess I have a lot to learn about expressing things with a sense of humor when I'm feeling perturbed by something. Still, the beginning of the thread completely confused me… what was that all about?

I'd like to say, though, that I (and Arapiles) am not against hunting, per se. I completely agree with Dan McHale and Lynne's take on the whole issue. To me hunting is a natural part of human evolution and psychology and very much triggers a strong sense of connection with the places that we live or travel in. I used to hunt small animals (not to kill or eat or with a gun, but to capture for my love of seeing animals up close), and did some fishing, and continue to engage in a close facsimile of hunting even today through my photography, and I know that some of the most serene and intense moments of engagement with my life and the world around me occurred with those activities. I think it is part of what we evolved to do in our habitats and that's why it affects us so strongly.

My protest is against guns, not hunting, at least not subsistence hunting when it is necessary or hunting for survival. You won't see any comments I have made that calls for an end to hunting. I am against guns in our present society for two reasons: because they are the cause of so many violent deaths among humans, and because they, as Dan McHale so eloquently put, needlessly harm wild animals when we have no survival need to eat them and when the habitats of the whole world are under such severe stress now. Just take a look at places like Congo, where a great segment of the population relies on bush meat to supplement their diets and subsequently wiping out wild animal populations. Chimpanzees and gorillas are going extinct because of this. Guns make this form of feeding populations easier and poaching is almost impossible to get under control now. In a way, Americans have it easy… their wilderness areas are "extra" land that can be set apart for leisure, while agricultural land puts out humongous amounts of food. The American population has the leeway to be frivolous about wild land because of all the food produced. Just imagine what would happen if agriculture didn't keep the society afloat and all people relied on hunting to put food on the table. It would be mad!

As to harems, I was trying to imagine the viability of a male harem… and just couldn't come up with a working scenario…I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to have guns in such a mix! But doubtless my detractors will remind me that just the opposite would be desirable, the bigger the gun the better!

Living here in Utah, and knowing quite a few polygamists, I will say that the vast majority of them are first rate, inbred, uneducated, backwoods, scum. What I've learned from the few that are upstanding folks, is that the multiple wives thing has a cumulative effect to it. The more you have, the easier it is. Two doesn't work, three can be a bit better, and after that, it appearantly gets allot easier.

I've noticed that the "seldom seen smith" method seems to be employed quite a bit, so it cant be all that "haremonious".

I think we final reached some sort of bumpkin proletariat, capital G trifecta in this conversation with that comment.

"David means that polygamy has been banned by the Mormon church for years (1890). I believe it was a condition of Utah becoming a state…"

It may be illegal, but rarely prosecuted. According to Wikipedia, "Overall in Utah today, those living in polygamist families number about 40,000 people, or about 2 percent of the population".

As to their status as inbred, uneducated, backwoods, scum, I will have to take Josh's word for it, as I don't personally know any. I certainly think most of them are cloistered in remote communities due to the illegal status of their practices, and this no doubt leads to deficits in education, socialisation and outbreeding opportunities! I wonder if it would be much different if it was legalised and accepted as a legitimate personal choice, then maybe they could be better integrated and, ummm, educated???

As long as we're going to stereotype, I'll bet they all have guns ;)

I struggle trying to make one wife happy, I can't imagine two or three. I'd need more guns for sure.

Joe-

got any load data on 38 long colt?

"As long as we're going to stereotype, I'll bet they all have guns ;)" And bombs, and bibles. http://www.exmormon.org/violence.htm

As for inbred, you dont have to take my word.
http://human-nature.com/science-as-culture/walker.html

Legalization of polygamy would not help the education situation in contempary LDS fundamentalism.
http://www.thedarksideofsaltlakecity.org/

"As long as we're going to stereotype, I'll bet they all have guns ;)"

Rifles, too, Lynn. ;}

Oh, that's how ignorant I am of firearms. I thought a rifle was a type of gun! I wonder how many of them have semi-automatics?

The rifle/gun difference is sort of a running military gag. I'm not going to elaborate…

"The rifle/gun difference is sort of a running military gag. I'm not going to elaborate…"

Just watch Full Metal Jacket….