Heading Out In December

Please talk your wife into the down jackets! I would freeze on a December outing with just a fleece jacket, and I'll bet she would, too. I have the Montbell Alpine Light (yum!) but would probably go with the Alpine Down for winter trips. They may still be on sale at 20% off at Campsaver (and maybe a couple of other sites).

A military field jacket liner (synthetic insulation) runs around $18 brand new, cheaper used. This would be a nice addition to a fleece jacket and a wool sweater. I get merino and lambs wool sweaters at the thrift store for a few dollars.

I think the driclime shines in winter as an active layer. It's my go-to over a light baselayer for high activity things like snowshoeing or backpacking in the 15-30F range. But, for sitting around there is no real substitute for a puffy layer. Your 200 weight fleece worn with all your other layers is likely to leave you feeling chilled if all you are doing is sitting around,though it's pretty amazing how much warmer it is when you layer a hardshell over the top.

If you want to get a better handle on the relative warmth of various down and fleece pieces do a search on Richard Nisley's posts. He's put together some pretty amazing test results for a bunch of popular garments.

andy what a great suggestion! i nearly forgot about that piece of gear. granted it's not quite as warm as a puffy down jacket, but it'll suffice for anything short of single digits (provided you have a base layer and a fleece/sweater on)

a word of warning about that though. perhaps think about bringing a scarf or some sort of neck insulation. that field jacket liner leaves a large portion of your neck exposed. other than that it's a sweet alternative

We have hats but no gloves. Any gloves you all recommend? Would something like this work? Or do they need to be waterproof?

http://www.rei.com/product/773910

Or would I need the gloves I linked in my above post in addition to these as well?

http://www.rei.com/product/725077

You probably wouldn't need the shell gloves unless it's sleeting or you're in a sustained cold rain. I like using gloves made out of windstopper or windpro fleece for a bit more margin if things get blustery.

http://www.rei.com/product/773910

These are made of Windpro. So they should be OK down to around 10-15 degrees? Or do I need some kind of glove shell?

I think we are going to buy the Jackets. I trying to sink my head into Richards post to decide between the Alpine Light and the Alpine down. Cheapest price on a Alpine down is 179, cheapest on a Alpine light is 125. Huge savings, especially since we have to buy two. We do MOST of our trips in spring, summer, and fall. So I am leaning toward Alpine Light, but I REALLLLY only want to buy 1 jacket. I do not think we could buy them right now though if we had to get the Alpine down.

Based on my reading with this setup:
Capilene 3 Shirt
Marmot Driclime
My wife also has another lightweight fleece that could go here on top or below driclime, I do not have one
Alpine Light
Marmot Precip
with hat and gloves and a balaclava

I think we can make it down to 20* but I cant be certain. We also have another long sleeve wicking shirt we could double on base layers if it was REALLY cold. I THINK this would work. But I am not sure. Still trying to decide between the two jackets.

Where in the SE are you? I can do fine down to the low teens with just a thermawrap jacket over a thin merino wool base but I've started carrying the UL down inner more since it's a good bit lighter. I'd take a sweat bath in the Alpine and the Alpine light would be pushing it. Most of my trips are in North GA and Western NC.

I've been in the Smokies with a low of around 10-12 with the thermawrap/wool combo. Pants were the older REI Mistral. We got some rain and sleet that trip as well.

For reference I run fairly warm.

This trip will be in the smokies. We are NOT doing Clingmans though, so I suspect lows to be around average (28*), 20* if it were unusually cold. Mainly worried about the lounging times (early morning late evening).

With those temps, I bet the Alpine Light will be fine. Especially because you're having fires at night. Have your wife carry the extra layer. Or buy the Alpine Light for yourself and the Alpine Down for her.

RH

When I lab tested all of the Montbell jackets last year, I decided to post only the Iclo values because any lab could replicate my tests and come up with the same numbers. Translating Iclo values to a temperature range requires that many variables be explicitly defined for different testing facilities to come up with the same temperature range:

– Iclo value of clothing worn under the jacket: Assume 1 for your cold weather wear
– Wind: Assume that you are sheltered from the wind
– Metabolism: Assume you are the typical 30 year old male. Also assume your wife’s extra fleece will compensate for her lower metabolism.
– Activity Level: Assume you are doing typical camp chores (1.5 MET)

The following temperature ranges are calculated by using peer reviewed physiology formulas with the variables defined as above in addition to the laboratory measured Iclo values for the jackets. The Montbell down jackets will provide thermal comfort in the following ~temperature ranges:

UL Inner = 48F to 33F
TEC Down = 44F to 28F
Alpine Light Down = 39 to 21F
Alpine Down = 30F to 9F
Permafrost = 16F to -9F

You are on the lower bound for the Alpine Light Down with the clothing ensembles you defined in your posts for the 20F environment. I suggest you wear your additional fleece leg insulation in camp, when needed.

Richard, thanks for the excellent reply. 20* is kinda what I figured being the absolute minimum we would want to go with the Alpine Light. Your excellent reasoning behind my educated guess just reinforced my thoughts. Thanks. I think the Alpine Down would be a safer bet, but being as how we only go on 1 or 2 winter trips a year, I think I may spring for the Alpine Light. I could always get us a merino wool layer that I think would compesate for the Alpine Light (maybe?).

One thing I have been curious about reading through your wealth of info on different options. It seems the Down layer is always considered to be the outermost layer. In one of your graphs you detailed out several gear options and charted them with MET and clo values. The last option was a down jacket on top of the mid configuration. I think our DriClime + Cap 3 + her fleece you say is 1. And I think the Montbell Alpine light is around 2.51. So we are talking 3.5ish. What does the Marmot Precip rain jacket do on top of all this? Are those figures including a hat, gloves, and balaclava, with equivalent layers on your bottom half?

Thanks for all you do for the community Richard, your posts are amazing.

To everyone else, thanks for taking the time to post (some of you multiple times) in order to help us out.

RH,

Thank you for the kudos.

You asked, “What does the Marmot Precip rain jacket do on top of all this?”

If you are not sheltered from the wind, then the temperature range would be reduced based on the wind speed. If the Marmot Precip is sized large enough to fit over your down layer, then four benefits are accrued. First, it allows you to wear your clothing ensemble in the wind, with little reduction in the stated temperature range. Secondly, if the Precip seals tightly at the neck, wrists, and waist plus allows an air gap between it and the jacket, then the temperature range is increased based on the size of the sealed air gap up to about ¾” max. Thirdly, it protects the down garment from any precipitation wet through. Fourthly, as your MET level goes up, the billows effect will pump excess heat and moisture out.

You asked, “Are those figures including a hat, gloves, and balaclava, with equivalent layers on your bottom half?”

All of the specified temperature ranges are for jackets (48% body surface area covered – BSA) and the clothing items you explicitly specified in your posts (long underwear bottoms, convertible pants, hat, gloves, and a balaclava). Those items were considered by me to be light weight and are included in the 1 clo base layers figure.

If you select the MB Alpine Light parka, versus the jacket, it will increase your BSA coverage by 7%. This will result in a proportional increase in the down garment’s contribution to the stated temperature range. If you approach the hypothermia threshold, then the addition of the parka’s hood provides dramatic additional thermal benefit.

Great. Thanks. So if I am reading right this:

Top:
Capilene 3 Shirt
Marmot Driclime
Lightweight fleece
Alpine Light Down jacket
Marmot Precip
with hat and gloves and a balaclava
Bottom:
Midweight cap long johns
Fleece Pants
REI Convertible Pants
Marmot Precip Pants
Wool socks with liners
Boots

Would get us down to 21*. If we chose the Parka instead, it would make it down to ~19* (roughly 7% increase).

RH,

There was great advice provided by many others in this thread. As they mentioned, there are some base-layer tuning you could make but in general your summary is valid.

Thanks everyone. As soon as I buy my gloves I think I have it all. Just need to read back through my own thread and take in all the great advice.

Let me know how it works for you. I'm curious as to how little insulation I'm able to get away with compared to others.

Will do Chris. We have a small 3 day 2 nighter planned before our longer trip in GSMNP. We should see lows around 32-35 for the shorter upcoming trip. That should be a good test to see if our layers are going to cut it before we spend 6 days in the Smokies. Not that there is much we can do about it at that point…Doubt backcountry.com will take the jackets back!

I just ordered the Alpine Lights for us. Not the parkas. Thought about the parka but they were 170ish whereas the Light was 127 at backcountry.com. Both of our birthdays are coming, plus 2 other family birthdays, plus Christmas, so it was all we could do to even swing the $127 each. This sport is like the Cookie Monster of Money.

RH. a useful trick i learned a long time ago when i was a little boy. take 2 grocery bags and use either over your socks or between sock layers. it really helps with warmth

Well my wife was nervous. I cancelled my order and went with the Alpine Downs. Merry Christmas to us because that just eliminated all other gifts!

This is probably obvious to you, but still worth mentioning. With down as both your sleeping and primary clothing insulation, be sure to have a backup plan in case something happens which soaks all of the down. This is more of a risk in the 20 F + temperature range you'll be in. Carrying excellent firestarting materials along with thoroughly-practiced firestarting skills and a few contractor-sized trash bags which can be stuffed with leaves, spruce boughs, or pine needles to make an emergency sleeping bag seems like a reasonable precaution.

I’m just curious, you said you were new to hiking. Do you plan to hike in cold weather regularly, or are you just trying it out? The reason I ask is that you are planning to spend a lot of cash on stuff you may not need again if you go out and this experience is a bust. If you already have some cold weather clothing that you could make work for this trip, I would recommend just using that this first time out to see how things go making sure you have adequate rain protection.

The weather in the SE is squirrelly in the winter. You may get temperatures in the 20s or you could be going during a heat wave where it’s in the 40s – 50s. Another thing to consider is how your body reacts to cold temperatures. Some people don’t require much clothing in the cold, while others like myself get cold real easy. Even though I get cold real easy I still have to strip off most of the layers while actually hiking to avoid sweating, and thus getting the clothing wet. One other thing to consider is if you plan to have fires you aren’t likely going to want to sit near them with all that expensive clothing on. Embers tend to jump out, and you might get a hole or two burned in your clothing. I wouldn't necessarily plan around having fires though because it could rain the whole time you are out.

The list of items you posted above seems to be a little excessive in my opinion, but do whatever works for you. I tend to get cold real easy, and this is my list (can get me down close to 20 deg):
TOP
Synthetic T-shirt
2 Long sleeve capielene shirts
Micropuff
Precip jacket (if it’s raining)
BOTTOM
BPL Cocoon pants
Precip pants (if it’s raining)
HEAD
Fleece stocking cap
NECK
Fleece neck thingy (can’t remember what it’s called)

One of the big things is to make sure you cover up all your exposed skin like on your head and neck. In my experience you can wear a ton of layers on the top and bottom, but if you have exposed skin you will probably still get cold. So keep that in mind. You already have a hat and balaclava listed so that’s good.

Note that I use synthetic items because I also sleep in them. Plus it rains a lot around here so take that into account when considering down clothing. For the record, I occasionally hike in the winter in the SE.

We will be taking around 2-3 winter trips a year. We have this one, and a trip right after Christmas, and 1 in February planned. Next year we also want to take some longer trips in another locale, maybe out west?, but to be determined. We started backpacking this year, in march to be exact, and have taken about 6 trips of 4 nights or greater, and 1 that was 6 nights. So we are certain we enjoy backpacking enough to invest the money, I am just more or less trying to buy what is needed at the minimal cost.

It is interesting that you get cold easy and can manage with those clothes. I would consider myself pretty warm blooded and I would like to see what I can manage with down to 20 degrees. According to some previous info posted by Richard, the Micropuff with standard base layers can get you to 35, and the Alpine Light to 21. So it seems like you can go lower than the average 30 yr old male. I would imagine I can too but I am not sure. My wife on the other hand, gets cold in 60 degree temps with a windshirt and a scarf on in street clothes, so that will get interesting.

I ended up ordering us both the Alpine Down jackets, although I probably SHOULD have ordered her the alpine down and me the alpine light. I think your probably right about it being excessive, hopefully, that is the case and I can lighten up a bit the next go around. I still do not think I fully grasp all the layering schemes. It seems from reading that the long sleeve wicking tees, the cap 3, and the DriClime are all base layers, and I had always thoguht the windshirt was to be worn over the cap 3. I understand the idea behind layering for more flexibility, but just do not think I understand all the options and "correct" combinations to use. The more articles I read on here the more I learn though, so I have been doing that quite a bit.

Luckily I found this site before it was too late, and I only have a few major purchases that I will have to re-make later in order to go lighter. For example, I have the Gregory Baltoro 70 pack, which is very heavy. It was the "Backpacker Magazine 2008
Editors' Choice Award Winner" so I thought, "THAT MUST BE GOOD RIGHT???" then I learned about how bad it sucks to hike 10 miles with 3,000 pounds on your back.