Heading Out In December

Where are you going?

I don't think that you have enough clothes. Consider bringing a down jacket.

GSMNP. East TN. Just a down jacket each? Or are we skimping too much in other places too?

What is the difference between a wicking long sleeve base layer top and the Capilene 3 top? Both are long sleeved base layers.

I would add a solid fleece jacket, or even better, a down or synthetic insulated jacket *if* you really want to stay toasty and warm in the evening and mornings. You can drop the driclime to offset the weight, if you must.

IMO, you can get by with the driclime as light insulation in the summer in areas that are still cool at night (Sierra for example) because you are moving all day and you sleep when it's cool. The the winter time in the south, however, the night is long.

Also, consider extra gloves if she is really cold natured. One for hiking and some very thick fleece mittens for around camp.

By the way, my avatar photo was on the AT near the Sawteeth in December. A few inches of fresh snow and daily highs in the teens, sub zero nights. Of course that is rare, but it happens. Luckily the forecasts will pick it up in advance.

So our DriClime windshirts are more useful for an early spring/fall type garment in the South?

Not sure what the difference is really. I had read you could use the capilene as a base or mid-layer. So we bought one as a mid-layer.

So basically it seems like we should drop the windshirts, and go with the long sleeve base layers, then the capilene shirts, then either a fleece or down jacket?

You'll want to wear Capilene as a baselayer. Capilene 3 is the middle of the road, and the most versatile IMO. Honestly, that will probably be enough to hike in. If it's windy (it often is on the ridge) you can add the rain jacket. This setup should be good to 30 while walking during the day. Now that I think about it, the driclime would fit in here if you want to add a touch of warmth in addition to wind resistance. I just wouldn't use it for insulation. Personally my rain shell (shown in my avatar, to protect from the wind) was enough, and you don't have to carry the driclime as well, but it's a judgement call.

Anyways, you'll be done hiking by 6pm probably at the latest, so you'll have low temps to endure until bed at 9pm or so. The driclime won't cut it for this. You'll want a fleece or insulated jacket. You'll wear your base layer plus your fleece/insulated jacket. Even better would be to have a baselayer for camp and sleeping, since the hiking one will get wet and chill you a bit.

You might be confusing Patagonia Capilene (baselayer) with Patagonia Regulator (R3, etc) which are their fleece insulation jackets.

Now, if it's bitterly cold (as in teens during the day) you may also need to add a light fleece to hike in in addition to the baslayer. A driclime could also help here.

The driclime is a nice jacket, but the only time I would consider it for useage as an insulator in those temps is out west during a long summer day when you walk all day, stop, put it on while you set up camp, and then go directly to your bag. You don't need a lot of insulation for that, so it does fine.

It probably has other good uses, such as cold weather walking or good old fashioned wind blocking, but not as a main insulation layer.

There is going to be a significant warmth difference between a fleece jacket and the type of down jacket that I have in mind. I'd consider something warmer than a fleece. Added bonus that it'll be lighter and more compressible for the warmth.

A capeline 3 is a baselayer. So you have two base layers on the list. Plus the Driclime isn't all that much different. While it's a lot of options, and extra weight, a layering system using such clothing isn't a bad idea. You could consider hiking in one baselayer, and keeping the other one dry for camps.

In camp, a good system would be a baselayer, a driclime, a down jacket, a waterproof jacket.

It's not the lightest setup, but a lot can be said for comfort and adaptability. If you choose to loose weight, I wouldn't necessarily drop the driclime. It is fantastic as a next to skin layer.

Do you have some experience with colder trips? What's worked for you in the past? If not, I'd err on the side of warmth. It is no fun being cold.

TO JACK: No we have no cold weather trip experience. This is our first trip that will dip into lows below 55-60 degrees. We just started backpacking this year. To be honest we have very little experience period.

TO JEFF:

Gotcha. Makes sense.

So, if I understand you correctly, here is what I have gathered.

Use the Capilene 3 as our base layers along with the midweight bottoms. With convertible pants on top. Hike in this (or possibly add the DriClime for my wife since she gets cold easily). When arriving at camp use a Capilene 3 baselayer (preferably different from what we hiked in) along with a down jacket (links of options posted below). Also use fleece pants, gloves and hats while sleeping.

Now for the down jackets. We do not own one. So which of these would be a better option?

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=70&p_id=2301131

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=70&p_id=2301289

Basically one has 4oz of down one has 2. WHich would be a better fit down to say 20 degrees?

I agree with you Jeff.

I think that the Driclime is a great piece for very cold weather hiking. Probably a keeper for a december trip!

Do you really think that a fleece is a warm enough layer for camplife in the area? I haven't done any hiking out there.

You might or might not want to hike with long john bottoms on. But having them along is a good idea.

Out of those two Montbells, my vote is absolutely for the Apline Light. I own an ultralight and don't find it to be very warm, definitely not warm enough for a winter trip. I might even consider a step up again in warmth. Like the Alpine Down:

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=70&p_id=2301293

Also, consider a hood.

OK sounds good. So adding down jackets to our arsenal should have us covered then?

Jack: You can get by with a 200 wt fleece for mild December temps. I did for a couple seasons. Then I used a Montbell Alpine Light or a heavier TNF Nuptse knockoff for really cold January temps. If you have the means, go for down over the fleece!

RH:
Sounds like you got it :) Of course, that is not the only way to layer. RH has some good ideas for using the drclime. In the end, you'll want something more. Fleece at the minimum and down if you have the means.

I have both of those jackets. I used the UL Down Inner as a replacement for a lighter fleece. Ideal for fall and spring out there. You can get by with it in a mild winter trip (such as the trip you are planning) but you may want to go warmer. I use the Alpine Light for most winter trips and an even warmer down jacket for the serious cold. I think the Alpine light would be a good choice for just one down jacket. Prolitegear.com usually has them for $120 or so.

This thread gave me some ideas for new uses for my driclime. In really really cold temps, I used to walk in cap 3, a 100 wt fleece , and my rain shell. I think the driclime and cap 3 would have been a good alternative, but that is a different topic.

Yep. You'd have a classic system. Long johns, soft shells, hardshells, puffy jackets. Doesn't get much better than that!

If you upgrade the warmth to the Alpine jacket, you'll have something that should be warm enough for most of your trips. Meaning you won't be looking to upgrade in warmth. Then in the future, if you feel like reducing your packweight for shoulder season trips, you could buy a lighter down jacket like the Ultralight. And you'd still be fitted out for higher elevation trips, shoulder season trips or mild winter trips.

Have a great time!

Thanks for the help guys. This is why I joined the community in the first place. Everyone is so helpful.

I think I understand the layering system a little better now.

My wife is note siked about spending 300 on a couple of down jackets. Do you have any 200wt fleeces you would recommend that is at a cheaper price point?

if you're not a label guy you can always look this route:

http://www.landsend.com/pp/SnowPack700DownJacket~198978_59.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::BLA&CM_MERCH=IDX_00007__0000001111&origin=index

and for her

http://www.landsend.com/pp/SnowPack700DownJacket~199101_59.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::PEU&CM_MERCH=IDX_00007__0000001046&origin=index

Nothing says Merry Christmas like a couple of new down jackets. You won't regret the purchase when your nice and warm on the trail.

Definately not a label guy, but what worries me about this is she is allergic to down. She seems to do OK with 800 and 900 fill weight, but the 700 fill weight in these jackets might present a problem.

Or should it not be a problem?

Poly fibers parkas work well too and are less expensive than down. Golite used to sell them. Northface does. You can use a vacuum bag to pack it small. Do not forget your long underwear. I use a Dri Clime a lot in winter (New England).. It is basically a wind shirt over a lightweight fleece. Combine that with a your rain gear jacket ( Marmot Precip) and a down vest and that keeps me plenty warm standing around. Put liner gloves on at the trail head and do not remove them. My hands really get cold quickly and fingers become stiff and useless.

Insulated footwear. I use a Wolverine tall boot. Gortex 600 wt. thinsulate. One boot size 11 weighs 1 lb. 13 oz.

Just roll the air out of vacuum bags (Target carries them)

http://www.wolverine.com/US/Shop/Detail.aspx?NavID=G-HNT-810&SID=27502
Dick's carries them for less $$

Most people are allergic to the dust in the down, not the down itself. I don't know whether that's the case for your wife. High end companies treat their down to make it "hypoallergenic". I'm not positive that Montbell does it, but I assume that they do.

A 200-wt fleece is not comparable in warmth to one of those jackets. They really aren't all that warm when sitting around. Are you planning on having campfires?

Yes we will absolutely have fires. I think we are just going to pony up and get the jackets along with some montbell versatile rain pants. We are using DriDucks(sp?) now.

Are the versatile pants a step up from precip pants or the Rei UL pants?

I would keep your driducks. I used a fancy $300 rain shell/jacket, but never saw any benefit of fancy rain pants over my $20 frogg toggs (like driducks more a bit more durable). Even when I used my frogg togg rain jacket I was fine. Sure, the $300 replacement breathed better, but it wasn't necessary. Oh, the hood was waaaaay better than the frogg toggs hood.

All you really need is a thick baselayer, a nice down parka, a light wind/rain shell, hat and gloves. I also carry a light poncho to double rain duty, use as a ground cloth for hanging out, and fold up and put under my pad for a little extra insulation.

The down with the wind jacket over it creates quite a bit of warmth, as long as the jacket doesn't compress the down while worn.