Stove for melting snow in a tent!! (or vestibule)

I'd love to know the answer to this as well. So far, I have tried a small, basic canister stove in warm weather for melting snow and it took forever. I'm reluctant to try a more complex stove though. Canisters are hard to beat for ease of use.

I just did the same type of research today and came up with the MSR Windpro for trips this winter for 2 people based on its weight and price. There seem to be marginally better options out there, but those cost over twice as much. The CO emissions appear to be fine according to the article written by Roger Caffin, and he mentions that it seems that the Windpro was designed to be used as a liquid feed stove as it has a preheat tube over the burner–something about liabilities may have hampered its advertising as such.

Check this link out for the report: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide_pt_3.html

Hi Pierre

I should start by admitting that I have some (well-known) biases on this matter, but they come from about 20 years of cross-country ski touring. I will assume you have read through all the stoves articles I have written for BPL? Winter stoves, CO series, and heat exchanger shootout.

Primus EtaExpress: Deadly CO levels. No Way!
Jetboil uprights: forget it. Great marketing hype, but that's all. Fail in the cold, and the PCS is far too small anyhow.
MSR Reactor: huge power, but still an upright which can fail in the snow.

Coleman Xtreme: 'gold standard' but no longer in production. Low CO level.
Coleman Fyrestorm (Ti): also very good. Low CO level
MSR Windpro: usable, but has given some valve problems. OK CO level.
Jetboil Helios, Primus EtaPower EF and Primus EtaPackLite: not light, but all reliable choices. OK to low CO levels.

Don't forget the windscreen!

Cheers

Note that you can still find the Coleman Xtreme on the web and on eBay. I have two of them I picked up in the last year.

Roger, how is the Coleman Xtreme for CO levels and how are the other stoves you recommended for CO?

My current setup for cold weather is going to be an Optimus Nova gasoline/kerosene stove using gasoline with a 2.1 L primus eta pot (with the heat exchanger bottom). Any opinions on this setup? I wouldn't use this stove in a tent, but maybe in a vestibule after lighting outside.

Preliminary tests in my yard in this spring:
temps a little below freezing;
wind 15 to 30 mph and gusty.
Optimus Nova with kerosene and with primus eta pot boils water quickly.
Alcohol stove I couldn't even light (I'm inexperienced with alcohol stoves).
Snowpeak Giga canister stove, no external windscreen, very marginal, hard to keep lit, slow boil time.

For stove or tent testing I am blessed (?) with a very windy location. Send me your tents for wind testing :)

As you've found, the ETA pots work great over a liquid fuel stove. It's not really fair to compare this to the Giga stove with no windscreen.

My suggestions would be either stick with the Nova, but run white gas, not gasoline. The crud in the gasoline will clog it really quickly, and there's a heap of stuff in there you don't want to be breathing in. It may make you sick that night, or over the course of your trip, even without the long term effects (personal experience)

Or even better, pick up a Brunton stove stand and winterise your Giga (Roger's article) For $15 this will let you run the Giga with an inverted canister and a windshield. Low CO, so you can light it and use it in the tent or vestibule with no flare up. That's where I'm headed (Thanks Jonathon)

Rod

> how is the Coleman Xtreme for CO levels and how are the other stoves you recommended for CO?

All are OK to low. I have edited the posting.

Cheers

Hi Walter

Gasoline scares me – too many near misses. Burnt pack and sleeping bag. Kero is OK but has a very bad smell and fumes, which may be a health problem. Priming either can be a fireball exercise, which is NOT recommended in or even near a tent. Tough luck getting either going in a storm.

> Snowpeak Giga canister stove, no external windscreen, very marginal, hard to keep lit, slow boil time.
Do you mean an upright in the snow? Forget it!
No windscreen? Futile!

You probably know my recommendations already. :-)
Cheers

It will not be light, but if you want to melt a lot of snow in strong winds, an Optimus Nova mounted in a Trangia 25 works a treat. The heat is awesome, and the Trangia protects it from the wind. Because of the weight, it is not really for the solo hiker, but quite efficient if there are more of you. It would be similar to the Optimus Loke integrated setup that used to be given to Swedish military units operating in arctic regions. Once upon a time there was also a similar unit produced by Sigg, and using the Svea 123 gasoline burner.

Thanks for the info.
Rod — “…run white gas, not gasoline” Yes, I meant white gas. The kerosene wasn't too bad but white gas should burn cleaner.

“pick up a Brunton stove stand and winterise your Giga (Roger's article)” I'll try that this winter, though I suspect the white gas/kerosene stove to be better when I need to melt snow.

Roger — I will never start a liquid fuel stove in or near a tent and will only use it in the tent in extreme conditions. My Snowpeak stove is an older model and has no preheating of fuel; the problem seemed to be it was just too cold for the fuel to vaporize properly.“Do you mean an upright in the snow? Forget it!” Now I know. I'll experiment with the info from your article. :) “No windscreen? Futile!” Yes.

Willem — “Optimus Nova mounted in a Trangia 25 works a treat.” Interesting. Does the Nova just fit into the Trangia 25 or does it need modification?

“Optimus Loke integrated setup” I had never heard of this; a version made of lighter material would be interesting. It seems very heavy (1.4kg). http://www.base-camp.co.uk/Large%20stoves.htm

I'll stick to an inverted canister stove. I like the Helios/Eta Power EF set up. Any idea on how to modify one or the other to get them lighter? Or which one seems better.

Anyone tried to modify the Reactor to make it an inverted canister? Jut an idea… And it might not be a bright one!

Roger's coment… ''Don't forget the windscreen!"
Even when cooking in a tent?

Cheers

> I like the Helios/Eta Power EF set up. Any idea on how to modify one or the other to
> get them lighter? Or which one seems better.
Drilling holes will only get you so far. Design limits – some bits are just plain heavy.

> Anyone tried to modify the Reactor to make it an inverted canister?
You could of course, but then it would be even heavier. You might save 20 g of gas at the cost of 200 g of weight.

> Roger's coment… ''Don't forget the windscreen!"
> Even when cooking in a tent?
Certainly! Always!
Why? Several reasons.
* unless your tent is a lot more ground-hugging than my summer tent, there are still drafts flying around in the vestibule.
* having a windshield around the pot means the hot gases are forced much closer to the pot rather than drifting gently out sideways. As with the Trail Designs arrangement, this leads to better heat transfer to the pot, faster heating and better efficiency.
.

Breakfast time, Chamonix to Zermatt, 2009

Cheers

Hey, that Optimus Loke looks a lot like this setup I got from Campmor. I haven’t used it yet in winter but I have high hopes. (Yes, it’s set up wrong in this photo.)

Hi, I just got one of these and it looks fantastic!
I'm using it with a Optimums Crux stove and would be VERY happy taking it in the Rockies in summer when were spending time on a glacier.
Not a lot of info on it (cc.com, trailspace), but what is available looks good – and I agree, I'm cautiously optimistic.
I think the oven effect makes a HUGE difference in efficiency.

Its expensive, but I like mine.
I would NOT bring it in the winter though, unless you were running it with a brunton stove stand – but that the waight of your curent stove; I'd get a wisperlight from switching gear in canmore. Last I saw they has a whole bunch of used ones for 10-15 each. If they ever break, well…

you could get that remote canister stove that MSR sells – pretty light. If you want you could use it with a ETA pot, or like Steve House with a DIY heat exchanger

For winter I use my MSR Dragonfly stove. No other liquid fuel stove simmers as well and its high heat output is amazing, nearly equal to the high-heat-only MSR XGK.

I don't even consider risking using any canister stove in winter.

Eric

Point taken on the wind shield even in the tent. I'll use one.

Steve House vid: I had seen it a while ago but was too busy with the climbing equipment he was showing. I did not even realize he had shown a stove/heat exchanger! I'm really interested in finding how he made it. Suggestions, anyone? I have the MSR one and it is simply big, clunky and heavy.

I'm also thinking that I could try to add an Al flux ring to my MSR Ti Kettle. Now, if I only had Roger's ( and the likes) knowledge and handiness. I'm fully aware I might ruin the pot but I got it for free…

Dragonfly stove: I love mine too but it seems too big and heavy. Plus, I'm not too fond of the pre-heating idea in a tent. I had to do it many times at high altitude (Aconcagua, Rainier, Peru) and it simply is a risk I'd like to avoid.

Again,
Thank you all for your insight.
Cheers

Call me slow but I just clued in on that one. Anyone tried it to melt snow?
1.2L, lesss than 600g (as light as 510g/ Thanks Roger!)
Seems compact, light ish, simple, efficient reversible canister. What' your take?
Cheers

Hi Pierre

From the Part 3 of the Stove Shootout series at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p3.html :

'It must be said quite clearly that this [PackLite] is an excellent stove for winter use. It is only a little heavier than the Coleman Xtreme and Fyrestorm stoves, and after few nights of use the PackLite would start to be lighter than them once you factor in the weight of the gas needed.'

Cheers

Primus ETA packlite vs. MSR windpro which would you choose.

Winter- colder conditions. Not necessarily melting snow however. Two person use for trip lenght of 12 days. One resupply.

I just got a windpro at REI and it weights almost 7 ounces on my scale without a windscreen. I was planning on pairing it with my 6 ounce 2L MSR titanium pot.

I'm having a hard time determining at which point the Primus stove becomes more efficient. With the new stove my current system should be just under 14 ounces before fuel. I still have time before I leave to get teh Primus stove. I'm just not sure if it's worth the weight saving in fuel over a 12 day trip where i wont be melting snow, but just boiling water.

Two people over 12 days?
I would seriously consider the PackLite.

Cheers

Yep, Your words have been echoing in my head for the last 24hrs. The series and many others have been a great help. Thank you for all your ideas/comment.
Pierre

Martin I did these sums posted on Roger's stove shootout part 3 thread. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p3.html?forum_thread_id=23770&disable_pagination=1
reprint here:

shoot out msr windpro v primus eta packlite on 09/07/2009 06:57:06 MDT
I can see I might be jumping the gun before part 4 of this interesting series but I want to reanalyze Rogers results for the windpro, the best non heat exchanger and the packlite, the best heat exchanger stove, for use in winter and melting snow.

Roger has the bottom line that you need 34 litres of water boiled before the packlite starts to beat the windpro. People will look at this and even for 2 people they will say that is 10 days or so, the contest is over, use the windpro.

As Roger tested them the weight difference is 132 grams but the packlite has a 90 gram windshield but could have been tested with the 71 gram windshield the windpro was tested with, that is 19 gram difference. The packlite has an igniter, to be fair head to head this should be removed I guess 15 grams. The windpro was tested with a 1.5 litre pot that comes with a pot lifter weight 29 grams, but it was not included. The packlite has an integral handle. Head to head the handle should be removed or the pot lifter included. 29 grams difference. make these amendments and the weight difference is down to 69 grams.

I use similar amounts of water to Roger. In winter we use 3 litres per camp maybe more but he has tested with an 80 degree C rise. In winter 100 degree would be closer. so I will multiply the fuel cost per litre by 25% to allow for the colder water. The sum is therefore how many litres does it take to use up the 69 grams of packlite extra weight. Each litre of water takes 3.85 (Roger's figure) x 1.25= 4.81 grams of extra fuel with the windpro so 69 /4.81 = 14 litres. By this time the windpro will have used more than one canister, 220 grams of gas. For us I see the break point as 4+ days. that is still a long time.
I do not own a packlite but it looks as if the base plate could be lightened. Also if you decided not to carry the packlite windshield and use a lighter one you could cut the windshield supports off the packlite feet. The only way to find those savings would be to do it.

If you must melt snow and boil, at camp only, you must almost double the gas used. If you must melt snow for the next day too you could triple the gas usage. In this final scenario anything more than one camp and the packlite would be lighter.

Most of the difference in weight is now the weight of the heat exchanger pot. The lightest winter stove is probably a primus eta packlite with an ordinary pot for short trips that dont melt snow, and take the heat exchanger pot for snow melting and longer trips

There is a special Trangia Nova burner/stove that fits directly into the Trangia. Alternatively, you can easily change your Nova into a Trangia Nova. Remove the outside/legs, and use the Trangia/Nova adapter Trangia part number 788205 to fit it into the Trangia.
The stove referred to as a lookalike Optimus Loke is probably an imitation Optimus Purple Flame. I have a recent Purple flame sitting next to me, in an official Optimus box. The bottom half of the windscreen is well made, but the rest is of obviously different and rather shoddy manufacture. It is also significantly heavier than the claimed weight. My hunch is that Optimus outsourced production later in the Purple flame's life. I would not be surprised if some of that production has found it's way to the market outside Optimus distribution. I had high hopes about this Purple Flame, because the design is cleaner and smarter than the Trangia, and claimed weight some 100 grams less than the Trangia 27. In reality this "Optimus" is rather heavier, however, whereas the Trangia is actually lighter in reality than its clamed weight(!). They are thus of nearly equal weight (if you also replace the heavy Optimus burner by the much lighter Trangia burner).
I also think that to be honest the Purple Flame is too small (about the size of the Trangia 27) to use such a powerful multifuel stove. I only use the Nova in my Trangia 25, and not in my smaller Trangia 27.