Homemade tents

[Michael Ray]

It was rather fun to build. Please post on how your project goes and feel free to ask me or Al any questions. He doesn't have PMs set up but I do. I think my next design will be a cross between the Wild Oasis and thinner Lunar Duo to gain more head & legroom.

[JASON CUZZETTO]

It should be fun. I work in aerospace and have some insight on the adhesive tapes that could work. We use a lot of tape.

I used a pyramid at the Scouting BPL course in May for the first time. It was an amazing tent. It should be fun to see if I can re-create it using the heatsheets material.

Now to gather the materials and warn my wife, kids and the dogs.

Take care.

Jason

[Michael Ray]

I'd be interested if you find some tapes that work as good or better, though I'd guess they aren't normally available to consumers. Pretty much anything with weather & UV resistance and excellent tensile strength should work. I had to order the 8959 on Amazon. I originally did that with the 2120 also, but one of our local big boxes has it.

I didn't make it clear in my video, but I used the 8959 on the underside of the seam, which extended for the pole loop until I had to replace it, and the 2 diagonals. Those were the places of highest tension on the material. The only reason I added 2120 on the top of the seam was to cover the inevitable gaps in material to prevent the uncovered tape from sticking when I folded the tarp. I should have covered the tieout loops with 2120.

I bet 2120 could work everywhere, but the 8959 is clearly stronger (I forget the specs now but they're on the 3M site somewhere). I can pull apart a 7/8" strip of the 2120, but not the 8959 as I recall.

Definitely want to keep the dogs away. :) I moved her tieout so she couldn't reach it after the "incident".

[JASON CUZZETTO]

The one thing I wasn't sure of is sealing the outside seems? Or that wasn't needed?

I read the data sheets from 3M and am wondering if these tents last less than a year? I love that you can repair them so easily though. The videos are great bu the way. It sure helped me understand what is going on. Now to get stuff on order. Take care and I will get back to you as soon as I can. I have a busy upcoming 3 weeks at work. But maybe I will find some time.

[Michael Ray]

I only had one seam, which was down the middle (from peak to center of back). As I said, I put tape on the outside of that seam to prevent sticking if I had any gaps where underside tape was exposed. I could have perhaps "coated" it with flour, dirt, etc. to remove any stickiness. I doubt it would have leaked otherwise. I did not seal along the edges where I sewed the mesh. Figured it was at the edge anyway so big deal if it leaked. Of course, there's no harm in adding more tape on the outside of a seam except weight.

The 2 places I had small leaks were the 2 patches I had to do on top. I did not take my time on those. I am pretty certain my error there was not flattening out the material where I taped the patch down, which you can see in the video, and thus water could seep in via the folds under the tape.

> am wondering if these tents last less than a year?

What would suggest that? Al has used his for over a year of Scout outings now. If you leave it up a lot during the day maybe so. Seeing how long everyday duct tape can hold on a car, I'd think the 2120 would last quite a while before losing strength. When I did my test, it was still stuck to the LDPE after 2 months of being stuck on the roof of my son's "fort". The 8959 however had given up the ghost. I tried to keep as much tape on the underside as possible just in case. It's just the tieouts and pole loop on mine that are really exposed and they should either use 2120 or cover the 8959 with it. Maybe I should try another test like that? I couldn't tell any degradation in the LDPE by eye or pulling on it after 2 months.

[Michael Ray]

FYI, I had happened to buy another roll of clear 3M duct tape at a different big box here in town. It looks, acts and feels like 2120 but the PN was L520 (UPC 051111026496). Had copyright 3M 2009 on it but L520 doesn't show up on their site at all. I know I've also seen them market it in auto stores in 15 yd rolls as another PN and there are 5 yd rolls as well.

[Michael Ray]

Clarification: I noted above (& maybe in my video) the Extreme Application tape as 8595, but I meant 8959. I've now fixed those posts. Sorry for any confusion.

[Michael Ray]

> Thanks for the UV tests on the material and two types of tape. It is good to see the LDPE Space Blanket material holds up. I suspect mylar Space Blanket would also hold up well, since NASA wraps it around satellites. UV is much worse in space.

> I have a question about the tape tests. Did you have any 8959 on the underside of the Heatsheet? If so did you see loss of holding properties for 8959 not directly exposed to the sun?

I just finished a new tape test – this time it was only one month on the roof of the fort, but the sun and heat were obviously more intense this time around. Since you had asked, Al, 8959 works fine on the underside of the LDPE. I didn't notice any degradation.

8959 does not work well anywhere it's exposed UNLESS it's covered with 2120. By itself, it not only delaminates, but also the filaments weaken significantly. However, I saw minimal degradation in the 2120.

Keep in mind this is for long-term UV exposure. It's pretty uncommon for someone here to leave their tarp up during midday sun for any length of time, so I'd still expect 8959 to work fine for tieouts for quite some time under "normal" use.

However, I'm wondering if 8959 is even needed though. I couldn't rip through the 2120 tieout with Triptease. It was ~1/2" wide (1/4 width of the roll) and 2 layers on the actual loop portion. If you're using thinner guylines, you may need more strength. If that is so, I bet normal strapping tape (covered in 2120) would be just as good (and cheaper) than 8959. I don't see any need for the bi-directional strength.

[George Geist]

> I bet normal strapping tape (covered in 2120) would be just as good (and cheaper) than 8959. I don't see any need for the bi-directional strength.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the exposure test results.

I agree with your assessment on strength. I used strapping tape for the tie-outs on my early prototypes. They worked fine except for UV exposure. I would check them before every outing and every couple months find one or two that needed to be replaced due to exposure. Being tape the "fix" only took a couple minutes to tape a new loop on. Most of that time was trying to find where I put my roll of strapping tape.

Covering with clear duct tape (2120) should significantly reduce the issue I had with strapping tape.

[Michael Ray]

> Covering with clear duct tape (2120) should significantly reduce the issue I had with strapping tape.

I would think so. You didn't have as much issue with tieouts made with just 8959 or did you not try that?

[George Geist]

> You didn't have as much issue with tieouts made with just 8959 or did you not try that?

Hi Mike,

I used the 2120 (transparent duct) tape for the tie-outs on the tent I took to Philmont. I used 8959 tape on the ridgeline since the main tensile force runs through the ridgeline.

[Scott Bratton]

I tried to download Al Geist chair-e-it sling light backpack instructions from the website and it looks like his space has been removed from http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~geist/Philmont/Chair-e-it.pdf
Does anyone know where I might be able to find the chair-e-it construction information?

thanks!

[Kristopher Dunn]

Turn on your PMs or send me one and I'll see if I can help you out

[George Geist]

Hi Scott,

The web site is down for a few days for maintenance.
The overview article Chair-e-it.pdf, pictures,
and the three documents describing the construction
will be back up soon. If you need the articles
before then, just let me know. I'm happy to shoot you
a copy of them.

Al

[Scott Bratton]

Thanks for getting back to me Al and Kristopher.

Al, I would like to get a copy of the documents from you if you don't mind, I'm going to Philmont this summer and would love to try to build this backpack as soon as possible so I can start using it on our training hikes. I already have a sling light chair and love it. I've updated my PM on my profile so you should be able to use that. Please let me know if you need more info from me thanks!!!

Scott

[Donald Howard]

I made a wire stake out of throttle cable wire .0625" (1/16") diameter and 7" long to try out. After repeated attempts I was only able to push the wire into the ground about 4" before it wants to bend. We have some tough ground here since it's been pretty dry lately. Am I missing something or are these stakes going to be too flimsy to work? I do have a source for 100 feet of .070" throttle cable wire but I need to prove to myself that this will work before buying it and making stakes for the entire crew.

[Michael Ray]

Donald,
The material I made mine from was clearly different than George's based on the weight, but mine are close to 1/16" and 8" long from some unknown wire that came with our house. IMHO, they are OK for secondary guyouts. I would not use them for primary ones unless conditions were calm. For an A frame that would be just the 2 ridgeline stakes and maybe the corners unless you put these every foot along the edge like George did. I went with a half-pyramid pitch.

Even pushed in to the max, the hook can still deform with strong gusts. I've not had issues with hard ground (I assume you ground or filed a blunt point of some sort). Rocks and roots will obviously stop it. I usually try a slightly different angle then. I've always been able to get past whatever was there. Sometimes that requires grabbing it near the ground also to help keep from bending and jabbing it in and out a few times to break around the object. I've not tried frozen ground.

FWIW, I prefer a decent aluminum Y stake. I only use these homemade wire stakes for the 4 secondary tieouts but I've rarely used them. You can make several of these for the cost of a Y, but if you're often going to be going into really hard (or really soft) ground, I'd go a different route.

As an aside for those now finding this thread, you can see what I've done with Prototype 2.

[George Geist]

Hi Don,

The wire stakes worked fine in the ground at Philmont. When the wire goes in a certain depth and stops, try rotating the stake back and forth while pushing down. This will often allow the stake to bend around objects underground much like oil drillers can adjust well directions underground.

It is important to sink wire stakes to the head. You don't want 2" sticking up out of the ground with the guy tied to the loop at the top. Last month a couple scouts borrowed my MYOG Philmont tent and set it up on top of Mount Rogers with 25-30 MPH gusts for most of the night. I was worried about the wire stakes holding, but amazingly the stakes held fine. They sank all of them to the head and used all the stake loops available on my tent.

Wire stakes will not work everywhere. I found they can't be pushed into packed gravel pads that are found in RV campgrounds.

Al

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