Tarptent vs MSR

For my seam sealing I used a small disposable foam "paint brush" (the smallest I could find). Having the tent set up with a good taut pitch makes it easier to brush on.

The silicone caulk/mineral spirits mixture paints on easily and needs to be sufficiently thinned/liquid to penetrate the thread and sewing "holes".

Are you trying to say I can't use a glue-gun and have to use a brush to seam seal my own shelter in the privacy of my own home? What rights do I have left???

Dan wrote: "I don't really see price as being a factor here. Sure the CR2 has a $500 MSRP vs. $325 but you can great deals on the CR2 since it's from a major manufacturer whereas you normally need to pay full retail for the Scarp 2."

I don't own the MSR or a TarpTent, but the notion that going with a major manufacturer gives you the chance to find a great deal is kinda dubious. If MSR (or any other major manufacturer) really intends to sell the tent for $300-something, but advertises a MSRP of $500, the $300-something price isn't a "great deal" so much as the $500 price is an outrageous gouge.

If, on the other hand, the major manufacturer is allowing large outdoor retailers to sell some tents at a loss, this is unethical business practice prob. intended to drive cottage gear makers and mom-and-pop retailers out of business.

Buying last year's model on closeout might be a genuine great deal, except that the planned obsolescence built into a system of new models every year seems at odds with the philosophical underpinnings of low impact and going light.

Cottage makers seem much less likely to indulge in these sketchy business practices–when I need a new tent I'll be trying to buy from one of them.

David: "don't own the MSR or a TarpTent, but the notion that going with a major manufacturer gives you the chance to find a great deal is kinda dubious. If MSR (or any other major manufacturer) really intends to sell the tent for $300-something, but advertises a MSRP of $500, the $300-something price isn't a "great deal" so much as the $500 price is an outrageous gouge."

I don't think either scenario you suggest is correct. The $500 price is not a gouge, nor are they inflating the MSRP to make $300 seem cheap.

The simply reality is that a major manufacturer sells a lot more tents and they sell them through a lot more avenues, so there is a better chance of finding a deal. This means that you have a much better chance of finding one on eBay (Have you ever seen a TarpTent on eBay?) or on a website that is having a huge sale. I got mine on eBay and several others have gotten theirs for cheap through promotions at gear websites. You cannot get a tarp tent through these same promotions because most stores don't sell TT.

It is possible to get a deal on a TT (ie. BPL gear swap thread) but much harder to find and because the supply is so limited the price is rarely much lower than MSRP.

It wasn't a big deal to me, until I couldn't get it right. I was never able to make the shelter water tight.

I guess I could have paid to have it done and in retrospect I may have done so.

Here is why. If you buy a shelter from a large manufacturer w/taped seams and the shelter fails to be watertight who is liable? It is obviously a warranty issue for that manufacturer to resolve.

For a greenhorn like me who bought a shelter from a cottage industry and was unable to make it watertight. Who was responsible for that issue? ME. Even when I attepmted in good faith to try and remedy the situation.

Is the liability for the shelter to be waterproof now on the maker if they seam seal it and charge for it? That would be a good question and maybe they can chime in with the answer. I would think if you pay them to do the job it would be reasonable to expect they make the shelter water tight.

I understand the economics and logistics behind seam sealing a silnylon product and I'm not blaming tarptent, smd, or whoever for not doing it. It is what it is. But for a newb like myself it was frustrating to drop that kind of cash and not be able to make it waterproof (god knows I tried).

Just food for thought. I know the vast majority had no issue with the seam sealing. I did, and was unable to fully resolve it even after going over soom of the seams a half a dozen times. Luckily the retailer I bought it from agreed to take it back. Sucks though. The Rainbow was a very cool shelter and fit my needs perfectly (if I could have made it water tight, lol)

The Scarp 2, having the options of either a netting inner tent or a ripstop inner has more seasonal versatity. For my purposes (winter camping) I'll get the ripstop inner tent and maybe add snap-on snow flaps on the hems of the fly near the door/vestibule area. I need that extra floor space for 3 people in winter with our heavy bags and clothing. Plus we can set our boot shells in our OWN vestibule and drag snow in on our OWN side, not our tentmate's.

The CR2 is ONLY a 3 season tent at best. Ya takes yer choices and ya pays yer money. Both tents are excellent quality. If I REALLY want carbon fiber poles for the Scarp 2 there is a company that will be happy to custom make them for me – at a price.

Eric

Dan,
Yeah, "outrageous gouge" is prob. too strong a phrase, and I didn't consider that more tents sold equals more tents available to be sold as used–that's a good point. I'm certainly not down on MSR in particular (I especially like that Cascade Designs continues to make a lot of products in the US), or major manufacturers in general, I'm just annoyed with some aspects of their pricing systems (which are hardly unique).

I still say if a new, current model tent can be sold by a retailer for $150 off MSRP, and both retailer and manufacturer can make money at the lower price, that represents a system built more on marketing hype than setting a fair price based on cost of materials, manufacturing and decent profit margin and sticking to it (which is what cottage makers seem to be doing). In that sense, comparing the pricing of the two products is apples and oranges–TT pricing *is* the price, whereas a major manufacturer's MSRP isn't something they really expect too many people to pay, thus must be inflated in some way.

Moreover, comparing the performance of products from cottage makers and majors doesn't seem to indicate that similar performance can usually be had for less money (in terms of actual prices paid) when buying new gear made by a major manufacturer. For example, from my limited research it looks like I could get a cottage gear tent (TT or other) that is functionally equivalent to my BA Seedhouse SL2 (but lighter, and better in other ways) for the same price or even a bit less. I was given the Seedhouse, so this isn't buyer's remorse talking, but that a highly specialized, made in the US product sells for the same price as a mass market, made in China item indicates two different approaches to pricing, at the very least.

I imagine that MSR uses standard retail mark up in their pricing which is a 100% markup. So shops likely buy the CR2 for about $250 and then try to sell them for close to $500 so they can cover their costs and make a fair profit. Based on this, you can see how a shop could sell the tent for $300 – $350 without losing money on the tent, but they can't do this normally or they wouldn't be covering their other costs like rent, utilities, staff, shipping, advertising etc. This is why you sometimes see a CR2 for $300-$350 (ie. a shop orders too many and just wants to get rid of them without losing money) but $500 is still a 'fair' price (or at least close to it).

I would very much disagree with people's assessment of space on the CR2 versus the Scarp 2. Yes, a 6' person might fit into the CR2 but by the looks of it they would be touching both ends as those slopes are pretty low while in the Scarp 2 you pretty much have the whole floor space.

And after seam sealing a few tents over the years I will be more than happy at any time to pay someone else to do it.

Brett: "a 6' person might fit into the CR2 but by the looks of it they would be touching both ends as those slopes are pretty low while in the Scarp 2 you pretty much have the whole floor space."

Be careful arguing something like this when you've never seen the tent in person and you're arguing against people who own it. The CR2 has a full 7 feet of length so it's quite generous in this regard. I'm 6'0" and I have enough length that I sleep with my dog at my feet off the end of my full length sleeping pad. There's no way you could have your head and sleeping bag footbox both touching the ends of the tent.

Yes – a buddy of mine has one. I am 6'1" and fit. However, he is 6'4" and has to sleep diagnal. The Rainbow is definitely longer.

Strange….BPL measured the CR2 as an honest 84" (7 feet) in length in their review of it. I don't see how someone how is 8 inches shorter than that would need to sleep diagonal unless they use a large pillow or something. The CR2's floorspace is usable right to the walls.

I'm 6 feet right on and I have a lot more than 4 inches extra. As I said, my 20lbs dog sleeps below my feet.

Most of us sleep in sleeping bags. My Montbell SS UL #2 long is 84" long (thanks to loft). That means that if I am in my sleeping bag, each end will touch the walls. Because the walls slope slightly, you are not getting the full 7 feet of length, anyway that you want to slice it.

My friend uses a bag that is 88" long. He could not use this shelter with another person.

By the way, BPL used the Manufacturer's spec for length.

There is now way that the 7' length is usable to the walls unless you have a thickness of around 4" or sleep in the center. If the length was from the door to the back wall but no from side to side. Not with those corners that slant in. So I guess if you are tall, sleeping in a summer bag and sleep in the center you might not touch.

Yeah, to me it seems like a slightly more stable DR for twice the price.

David: "By the way, BPL used the Manufacturer's spec for length."

BPL measured the length. I quote from the review: "The length is 84 inches as specified."

The wall at the sleepers head end is near vertical in the lower 10" or so, so there is little loss of length on this end. You can see this in the photo below left.

On the foot end, there is some inward slope in the corners but you still have a foot or so of vertical wall in the center, and even in the corners you lose a couple inches max. As you can see from the overhead shot (below right), someone sleeping in the middle of the tent would indeed get the full 7 feet, while someone sharing would have a few less inches.

Yes – specified by the Manufacturer. I can only see in the article where BPL measured the width because the two pads were touching.

What Brett said is that if you were on a pad, there is no way that you actually get 7feet or whatever it really is because of the slope of the walls.

I don't want to get into any sort of contest whether the CR2 is big, small, or any good, but compared to a TT Rainbow it is noticeably shorter and almost the same width. The Double Rainbow is much wider. I can only relate what my Buddy said regarding the CR2. He likes it but it is short for him.

Oops, I was a bit worked up there….my apologies. I'm cool headed again now. You're right that the Rainbow is longer and thus better suited for people significantly over 6".

I do think that BPL did measure the length in their review. Here's the full paragraph. My understanding of the wording is that they measured the length at 84" which confirmed MSRs specification. I can't imagine Will not measuring the length since he put so much time into the width measurement.

"Although the tent floor is specified to be 50 inches wide, I measured it at 40 inches wide seam to seam in the center of the tent. I reported the discrepancy to Cascade Designs, and the response I received from their tent designer was: "We measure the floor width from the widest point inside the tent, which is near the stake loops". I measured the tent floor between the stake loops at the ends of the tent, and found the width to be 46.5 inches. The extra width at the ends of the tent has little practical use; the center of the tent is 40 inches wide, not 50 inches as implied in MSR's specifications. The length is 84 inches as specified. This means the floor area is actually 23.3 square feet, rather than the specified 29 square feet."

Yes – then I would agree that it appears they did measure the length @ 84".

Now you just need your ankle in shape so you can go out and use it….

Yeah the ankle is a bugger….it's okay under normal use but a slight twist is excruciatingly painful. I've got a 3 day trip coming up in 2 weeks….hopefully its ok for that.

Gotta buy a NeoAir before then too since the baffles blew out in my current mattress (MEC Kelvin Summer Pad) recently.

Sorry about the first post and the tone of some of the others but the main picture they show for it is quite misleading. Just being very tall I get a little bent out of shape with all of these tent manufacturers give very subjective measurements. I order the tent, get it in, set it up, get inside, and then have to send it back because it is too short. And I am out $15-20 for the shipping each way. It does add up after awhile.

Dan,
How would you rate the space on the CR2 for two 6' + people? What about these same people plus gear? What about 2 people plus a dog, and 2 people plus a dog and gear? Just wondering how it would perform in all these scenarios at under 30 square feet.

Aaron – you should become a member and read the review. Many of your questions can be answered.

Support the cause.

I hear ya about measurements Brett…Plus I don't understand why the manufacturers in this industry seem to think the average male is 5' 6" 150 lbs…. ;)

Just sell some gear….; )

Would you like to buy a bag of stuff sacks for $24.99? :)